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Solar panels rebalance #67508
Solar panels rebalance #67508
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vehicle solar array = 8 solar cells stationary solar array = 16 solar cells
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Co-authored-by: Anton Simakov <[email protected]>
Co-authored-by: Anton Simakov <[email protected]>
Hope a rework for wind power comes at some point too (maybe they are accurate just not very efficient? idk) to put it on par with this. Awesome work! |
I looked into it and you are right. See #67533. |
any reason it's still draft? |
I want others to speak out and possibly verify my changes. Maybe there are some stupid oversights. Other than that, I can convert if everything is OK. |
What do you mean by this? Shouldn't the solar panels that are mounted on top of roofs return the new |
I have been pointed out that this was considered back when the new "irradiance" model was implemented in #59179 but was deemed too complex and taxing for too little gain. Right now in order to compensate for "optimal placement" all "appliance" solar panels receive a silent 20% power boost compared to their "vehicle" variants.
No, mounted solar panels return plain "solar panels" just as it was before. All existing map templates shall work as usual (apart from the increase in output of the panels). There are new "stationary solar panels" (decorative furniture) introduced with this PR that can be converted into new "stationary solar panels" (appliance) upon being inspected. Right now there are no occurrences of such "furniture" being placed anywhere on the map templates, this would require a separate PR and revision of existing templates. Like, the freshly introduced "Solar Farm"(#67275) could probably use some in lesser quantity than current abundance of normal "solar panels". What I've said about panels on the roofs of evac. shelters was purely my suggestion. All the options are available to map creators. |
I've made some final tests (I knew it! There was a small bug with a missing name!). I think this PR is ready. |
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You need to show your work that justifies quadrupling power output of the existing solar panel part and demonstrate that your changes result in correct power production given new England area latitude and flat mounting. I'm very skeptical that the status quo is that far off.
Your statements about advancements in panel technology and changes to appliance power draw are irrelevant, I just need to see your justification for how much power these would produce after your changes.
Real life solar panels apparently have a wattage of between 250 W and 400 W, so both numbers check out. (Real life panels have 60 cells or 72 cells apparently) Solar Atlas info for New England: https://globalsolaratlas.info/map?c=44.205708,-70.753784,5&s=44.205708,-70.753784&m=site Here come lots of deets: https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?c=44.205708,-70.753784,5&s=44.205708,-70.753784&m=site&pv=small,180,39,1 I can't quite figure out how to apply this to the game since Solar Atlas gives amounts per day or year. PVOUT seems to be around 3.5-3.9 kWh/kWp |
Here is an attempt at a justification:
https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/new-england-solar-panels/ The proposed solar panels with 2x8 cells are close to 1 square meter (4 x 2 x 0.44 m x 0.3 m=1.056 m^2), so they should produce 4.25 kWh per day (4250 Wh / 24 h = 177.1 W average). Note that solar panels:
I did a quick test in game where I let a single 200W solar panel run for one in game week in spring (with portal storms disabled) and it produced 40120 battery charge (kJ), which is 11.144 kWh, or 1592 kWh per day or 66.31 W average, which is only 37.44 % of the value reported by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for New England. This would mean that the in-game solar panels should be closer to 534 W to match real-life values. |
It very much does not check out, we're looking at output per square meter, not per "panel" which is variable in size. The 250W panels from your sources are close to one square meter, and the 400W panels are about 2 square meters, which means the current values are correct, not the ones from this PR.
Please point to where in the research paper this is substantiated. The closest I can find is a chart included from another paper showing tilted panel production per square meter, which is a completely different thing. |
The National Renewable Energy Laboratory has a calculator for what effect to expect: Site: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php Technical manual: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/62641.pdf Optimistic:
Pessimistic:
With a 30 degree tilt you can add 19% output. In my in game test a 200 W panel produced an average of 66.31 W, The discrepancy can partly be explained with 200 W panels having a smaller area than 1 square meter and that calculate use AC/DC conversion and inversion losses which wouldn't be applicable in a vehicle. In my research in #67498, the most common panels being sold were 400W and 1.4 square meter, with the 300W versions being 0.97 m^2. Most of the 400 W were intended for house roofs and most 300 W were for RV use with light-weight aluminum frames. |
Your testing indicates that 200W is at least 2x as high as it should be, and I would argue that you're actually looking at something like a 140W panel on one tile of a car, meaning the right epower value to set is right around 50W. The same applies to the fixed panels, they can be a full square meter and tilted, but you're still looking at an in-game setting around 150W or so to get the year round powet generation to be in the right neighborhood. |
In my testing, a 200 W panel produced 66.31 W average, about 1/3rd of its rating. Assuming it's linear, it would mean that the current 50 W solar panels produce 16.66 W average over a day which is quite a bit lower than the 25-30 W average of the predicted by the site. The site assumes a 1.2 DC to AC Size Ratio and 96% inverter efficiency, so that would be a direct 25 % increase as we're not converting to AC for vehicles. If we allow the panels to be 1 square meter then the 300 W versions would be more applicable for modern panels. Then, if we're generous and go by the optimist scenario, the average output would be 30 * 1.25 * 1.5 = 56.25 W avg power, which isn't that far from the 66.31 W measured in game. If we allow solar panels installed as appliances to use DC and to have a 30 degree tilt then it pretty much exactly matches the measured value. |
I don't think it works that way. "epower" is maximum power output at full solar exposure, not the average power produced by the "tile". I = 1.353 * 0.7 ^ (AM^0.678) , |
The evidence presented supports the status quo, not a change. |
@kevingranade So far I've not seen any explanations the 50W output from a 14kg panel is justified… Only your word. |
The figures are really obviously too low, by a factor of x3 at least. We all have these frickin things on our roofs now and know how much they produce. The in-game ones currently produce 50W - which would correspond to a miserable 0.3m2 panel for little babies. The calculations involved here are really simple - the guys have proved the math above. A simple example: Average domestic solar setup today is say 5kW. To produce this in-game needs 100 of those panels! Good luck finding that many in an entire city. To start with lets just buff the panels to 100W and see how it goes. |
Kevin doesn't see a problem. Apparently, if he thinks current solar panels are adequate, that's it. No way of arguing. |
Isn't #68603 is essentially what Kevin told about? |
As far as I can understand, the #67508 introduces "arrays" consisting of 4 ordinary panels. Other than that, it seems to be just what was proposed in this PR (roughly). Oh, and foldable solar panels are still trash for no reason. This was probably merged because Kevin hasn't seen it (he is not in the reviewers). |
Summary
Balance "Solar panels rebalance"
Purpose of change
With recent changes to electric energy consumption current solar panels have become inadequate. They are too heavy for their output.
resolves #67498
Describe the solution
I've adjusted the panels based on what others have find ( #67498 ) and my own findings.
The changes are:
Describe alternatives you've considered
As was noted, we do not currently have IRL analogues to "advanced" types commercially available. This requires further investigation and adjustments.
Testing
The items are in the game. I still can not deploy "stationary solar array" from a construction menu, even if the "disconnected stationary solar array" (E)xamine window says I can place it as an appliance. Needs further work.
UPDATE: Construction recipes added to the (*) menu
Additional context
TODO: