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NL: NL sign tagging not complete, forward/backward. #15

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AllroadsNL opened this issue Jun 20, 2017 · 8 comments
Open

NL: NL sign tagging not complete, forward/backward. #15

AllroadsNL opened this issue Jun 20, 2017 · 8 comments
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@AllroadsNL
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Presets must be well considered and do not have tagging failures in it, before you let the mappers use it.
A basic rule, do not give people the opportunity to make failures.

Failures are bad for the quality of routing.

For example
NL:C12

Your code:

<item name="No motor vehicles" ca.name="Prohibit vehicles a motor" es.name="Prohibido vehículos con motor" icon="traffic_signs/NL/NL_C12.png" type="node,way,relation"> <key key="motor_vehicle" value="no" /> <check key="traffic_sign:forward" text="Forward" ca.text="En el sentit de la marxa" es.text="En el sentido de la marcha" default="off" value_off="" value_on="NL:C12" /> <check key="traffic_sign:backward" text="Backward" ca.text="En sentit contrari" es.text="En sentido contrario" default="off" value_off="" value_on="NL:C12" /> <combo key="side" text="Side of the way" ca.text="Costat de la via" es.text="Lado de la vía" values="right,left,both,up,down" ca.display_values="dret,esquerre,ambdós,superior,inferior" es.display_values="derecho,izquierdo,ambos,superior,inferior" default="right" /></item>

But the NL sign says:
Gesloten voor alle motorvoertuigen
translated : Closed for all motorvehicles.
But the law writes what a motorvehicle is.
motorvoertuigen: alle gemotoriseerde voertuigen behalve bromfietsen, fietsen met trapondersteuning en gehandicaptenvoertuigen, bestemd om anders dan langs rails te worden voortbewogen;
Basicly: All motorvehicles without moped(mofa), bicycles with motor pedals support and disabledvehicles.

This means that moped and mofa is still allowed, must be set "yes".
Sign is mostly on one side of road, from the other side you can drive in, visit a house, entrance of farmland, or just turning on road, even if you turn 50 meters at the back of this traffic_sign, you can drive back. For routing this is important people who have a house on this road (or visitors) and start routing, they must start right or left. Not the whole road can be tagged. Mostly first 50 meters should be correct.

So forward and backward must be set for all transportation mode.
Unfortunately this can not me done with one checkbox forward/backward.
This example 4 times setting forward/backward.

This is the reason why I make this issue;
Is there a possibility to set once forward/backward for all keys?

This give me this code:

<key key="motor_vehicle" value="no" /> <key key="mofa" value="yes" /> <key key="moped" value="yes" /> <space /> <label text="Warning, sign probably one side, use forward/backward !! on small part of road"/> <space /> <check key="traffic_sign:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="NL:C12" /> <check key="traffic_sign:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="NL:C12" /> <check key="motor_vehicle:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="no" /> <check key="motor_vehicle:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="no" /> <check key="mofa:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" /> <check key="mofa:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" /> <check key="moped:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" /> <check key="moped:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" />

Optional
<text key="direction" text="Sign direction in degrees"/> <combo key="side" text="Side of the way" values="right,left,both,up,down" default="right" />

There is not a tag for disabled motorized vehicle, when there is, this must also be in the code.

Then we have also many undersigns, white shield, that changes the upper sign.
Example: Uitgezonderd bestemmingsverkeer
Translation: Excluded destination traffic.

<check key="traffic_sign:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="NL:C12;OB108" /> <check key="traffic_sign:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="NL:C12;OB108" /> <check key="motor_vehicle:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="destination" /> <check key="motor_vehicle:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="destination" /> <check key="mofa:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" /> <check key="mofa:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" /> <check key="moped:forward" text="Forward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" /> <check key="moped:backward" text="Backward motor_vehicle" default="off" value_off="" value_on="yes" />
And many other combinations.

We discussed situations like this in the forum, then with a NL:C6 sign
Also a cut way and on this point a the trafficsign, but also what we see the traffic_sign pole as a node.
One feature one element, tag what we see.
We also have the discussion of a in front 0 with some signs, example C1 in C01.
Many think it should be C01.

All these undersigns makes it complicated.

moped and mofa allowed !!

And a motorcycle can come from opposite direction.( if there are no signs on the other side).
Therefore forward/backward is needed.

Under sign OB05 means:
Uitgezonderd motorvoertuigen die niet sneller kunnen of mogen rijden dan 25 km/h.
Translated: Excluded motorvehicles that can not or may not go faster then 25km/h.
This icon is not the same as the OSM access agricultural icon. Agricultural are vehicles used by farmers
The Netherlands group is much wider till 25km/h

OB05, our goverment do not give this undersigns a number, they only say; You need to use a white shield, black letters or icons from traffic signs to express different situation The united traffic signs producers, agreed on OB05. They use always a 0 in front of single numbers 0 with 5. They do this also for traffic signs. C01.

Often there are two traffic signs on one pole, each traffic sign with there own undersign.

Hope you understand by taking a example the problems for Netherlands traffic sign tagging.

Making a presets for every country, it seems like this is the way to tag.
When done wrong, people make mistakes.
@AllroadsNL AllroadsNL mentioned this issue Jun 20, 2017
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@yopaseopor
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Hey!
I'm glad you use our tools..and find all the possible failures to give it a solution. I'm not dutch, I'm from Spain and I don't know the little particularities of every countries' traffic law so It is so important to have the information and knowledge from people of that country. Please help me, try the preset, and tell me the mistakes and misunderstandings with your country's traffic law. I will correct them as soon as possible (I'm a kindergarden teacher and we will start our holidays soon).
Thank you for your attention and your information

@AllroadsNL
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AllroadsNL commented Jul 30, 2017 •
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@hello, I looked at the traffic_sign tool and made the conclusion: "Do not use it".
Because this experience in my country, I said to myself, I can not use it in other countries if it is not reliable.
It effects, routing for all kind of transportation so much, especially it is a important passageway point.
Then I asked myself should these presets have such prominent place in JOSM.
Was it to soon to release?

I know, we are all volunteers and made the best of it. Put a lot, lot of work in it.
There must be discussion at some point, if it is not that good. Sometimes it feels harsh, but it is not personal!
We all thank you for your effort.

So, thinking about how to change.
JOSM preset is more a only key=value setting thing.
Traffic_sign effects multiple transportation modes. Difficult to set right, maybe impossible right now, forward backward, conditional.
The setup of JOSM preset possibilities is not that suitable for traffic_signs.
Although I do not understand all JOSM preset possibilities, but like to keep it simple.
And I asked if there are better solutions for tagging that gives less failure rate.

With one click for example all modes must be set forward.

I started discussion here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15007#ticket

And then there are these traffic undersigns. Making the function of the traffic_sign a little different.
That are a lot of combinations with one traffic_sign.
And there are more then you think.
Often gives conditional exceptions.
There are common undersigns, but a municipality have the free hand to make new text.

Wiki page under construction.
Some modes are not mentioned yet, because there is no OSM key for it.
Not all is correct.

Traffic_signs, it is not easy.

We all learn from each other.

Greetings Allroads.

@AllroadsNL AllroadsNL reopened this Jul 30, 2017
@AllroadsNL
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Wrong button touched.

@yopaseopor
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yopaseopor commented Aug 2, 2017 •
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@hello, I looked at the traffic_sign tool and made the conclusion: "Do not use it".
Because this experience in my country, I said to myself, I can not use it in other countries if it is not reliable.
It effects, routing for all kind of transportation so much, especially it is a important passageway point.
Then I asked myself should these presets have such prominent place in JOSM.
Was it to soon to release?

Oh thank you you for your opinion...Are you travelling by other countries than yours? Are you tagging traffic signs in other countries and other casuistics than yours?
It is true, it is not perfect. But are you making some pull request about your country?
In the preset I have only applied the tags are in your traffic country law and in OSM wiki. As user you have to check the information you are uploading to OSM. Preset may be not exact. It is more about one-click thing, you can always tune the information after.

I know, we are all volunteers and made the best of it. Put a lot, lot of work in it.
There must be discussion at some point, if it is not that good. Sometimes it feels harsh, but it is not personal!
We all thank you for your effort.

Thank you for the congrats, but I wish the preset to be most accurate to your country, to your situation, can you help with ideas, with code (sorry, I'm not a programmer, so any help is welcomed) ?

So, thinking about how to change.
JOSM preset is more a only key=value setting thing.
Traffic_sign effects multiple transportation modes. Difficult to set right, maybe impossible right now, forward backward, conditional.
The setup of JOSM preset possibilities is not that suitable for traffic_signs.
Although I do not understand all JOSM preset possibilities, but like to keep it simple.
And I asked if there are better solutions for tagging that gives less failure rate.

What is OSM? OSM is a lot of keys=lot of values . And there are many ways to set them. Preset is only a help, it is a preset you can use it or do it manually.
Difficult? It is difficult to tag any tree? With OSM you can. Can you map the railway traffic signs? Yes , you can, so...why can't you map traffic signs? . Is it impossible to know if a traffic sign is placed in the same direction of the way or the opposite direction of the way? What about if your are from that place? Can you compare the reality with OSM? Yes, you can.
Yes, there is one solution, complete manually or correct what is wrong.

With one click for example all modes must be set forward.

Ok , program it, build it, modify it, make a pull request, I will accept it, it is a good idea but I don't know how to do it.

And then there are these traffic undersigns. Making the function of the traffic_sign a little different.
That are a lot of combinations with one traffic_sign.
And there are more then you think.
Often gives conditional exceptions.
There are common undersigns, but a municipality have the free hand to make new text.

As you know traffic undersigns = another traffic sign with its own code you have to map. For mapping it you can use the :2 or :3 suffix to mark the position of the traffic sign. These other traffic signs contribute and approach to a specific situation of that road, so it is very important to add the keys and values you are not finding in the preset. I'm not Dutch so please help me making pull requests to your country specifics situations and what values are applying to that. Also I say preset apply to the most commons situations, you know.

Wiki page under construction.
Some modes are not mentioned yet, because there is no OSM key for it.
Not all is correct.

Ok , now I will tell you as a suggestion some things I miss in your explanations at the wiki. Also this part of this issue I will write it at discussion page of the wiki.

First of all, you need always the code of the traffic sign key. Instead of tagg only the tag=value, you have also to add the code of the traffic sign because you are mapping the traffic sign also, not only the situation of the way.Also always a traffic sign is a node, you can apply to the way , to a relation, to whatever you want the tags that explain you the traffic sign. But the traffic sign itself it is good to be mapped (for inventary purposes, for example)

I see this wiki is in construction but you are missing the most used values in OSM. I think these values are the first you would have to start to talk it.

But also I miss two important things:
I don't see any direction tag at the traffic signs so I don't know to which direction the traffic sign applies (only if it is oneway=yes probably I would guess it - oh wait, there are traffic signs in opposite direction like NL:C2, so you have to specify the direction of every traffic sign to make no missinterpretation of that ). Also I don't see any tag for the side of the traffic sign, to make the render and the counter be correct. As you can see with Kendzi3D some traffic signs are repeated in each side of the road. I think you can't miss that tag. The approach I have chosen with traffic signs preset is :forward and :backward , and the side tag.It would be not the perfect solution...but it works.

Traffic signs are difficult but we have to start to move it. Spanish Government has given to the community in a public resolution all the traffic signs from their roads and motorways (more than 500000). Madrid city government has done the same, Mapillary has recognised it in their pics and now you have a layer with their recognition system in a lot of countries (ok, it is not perfect...but it works). OSC also has an internal editor to adjust the traffic sign thing so...are we complaining each other or are we helping each other to build a system to catch all these valuable data inside our maps and make a powerful tool (I don't care if it is my preset or the neighbours own). This tool has to be worldwide useable, not only NL. And the tag scheme has to be the same target.

Please help to make the preset really useful,help to adjust it,to make it better, not telling the people to not use it, to not test it, to not improve it.

@AllroadsNL
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Only set traffic_signs in my country. Because you must have the knowledge to do it right.

I never watched Kendzi3D, do you have a good location to watch?

@yopaseopor
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yopaseopor commented Aug 6, 2017 via email

@AllroadsNL
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Not a problem it is not a must to respond directly.

Watched it and give some turns.
Not tried it in full plugin mode.

Difference in tagging;

traffic-sign:
a single node in a way
or
on the way
or
traffic_sign direct on the gps place, where it is, use direction degrees.

Mostly all open source databases have the last method for setting traffic-signs.
How to compare both?

I am working on this.
Us forum/PM for discussion.

@yopaseopor
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Difference in tagging;

traffic-sign:
a single node in a way
or
on the way
or
traffic_sign direct on the gps place, where it is, use direction degrees.

Mostly all open source databases have the last method for setting traffic-signs.
How to compare both?

As you can read in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dstop or https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_sign=city_limit traffic signs are added on a way. So why other traffic sign have to be different? Also if you put in on you make a relation of belonging without making a relation itself.

In kendzi3d only work with nodes belonging to a way because a node itself only have the direction if you mark it, But you have to think a road never is straight only . One easy way to get this information relative to the way (the most important for a driver: forward and backward) is inside the way itself.

For your style, good work, I would add the traffic signs itself , so you can catch the code and add it to your style if you want it.

@yopaseopor yopaseopor added the NL label Feb 17, 2018
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@yopaseopor @AllroadsNL