New quest: Smoking?

[rugk]

For cafes/restaurants/etc the smoking tag is useful.

Of course, this needs some country-specific research as in Germany, e.g. restaurants are not allowed to have smokers and non-smokers rooms together, but they must be split. (So smoking=yes is not really possible.)

[Binnette]

In france smoking is not allowed in public areas since 2008. But some restaurant/bar have an 'isolated' room in wich smoking is allowed.

[westnordost]

In Germany there are places which explicitly allow smoking. (And if it is not advertised, it usually means smoking=no)

[alejandroscf]

In Spain is forbidden to smoke in all restaurants, bars and pubs, also in public/government buildings.

[westnordost]

Since when? When I lived there (2011), smoking was forbidden "by default" and every place that allowed smoking had to explicitly have some kind of note/certificate/sign (I don't remember) posted somewhere visible.

[majkaz]

The same Czech republic - no smoking in restaurants and pubs at all (new in 2017).

[pietervdvn]

In Belgium, smoking is forbidden as well. It is only allowed in restaurants and café if a separated room is available for them (but very few have such a room).

[amandasaurus]

Smoking has been banned in all enclosed workplaces in Ireland since ~2003. So this would always be smoking=no in Ireland.

[voschix]

In Italy, all indoors public places are no.smoking by law. Very few places have dedicated smoker rooms.

[hmartink]

I would support adding such a quest. I'm not sure general rules (like "smoking=yes" not possible in Germany) are sensible/possible in SC. If it is possible, then of course this quest might be superfluous in some areas (if really all options, like smoking in front of the building) are prohibited.

And if a mapper does not like being asked (e.g. if the law does not allow several options), then she could simply use the settings to avoid being asked this quest.
As the comments show, there are many general rules which usually allow some kind of configurability (e.g. separate rooms, smoking outside). Beeing a non-smoker, I would highly appreciate obtaining the information beforehand. But if I were a smoke, this information would be also useful (e.g. if in Italy or Belgium I would look for those rare places with dedicated smoker rooms).

This tag is also not difficult to obtain: At least the places I experienced (and I travel quite a bit) the smoking regulation is usually posted near the entrance door, either outside or (in restaurants) inside. So when mapping the opening times I can often easily map this information as well, and if I map the menu or the accessibility of rest rooms (where I would enter the building) I could map the rest.

Finally, when I used the web frontend of OSM (which I rarely do) I noticed that I could enter only a limited set of choices for possible answers. So it should be easily implementable in SC, the only downside is that most likely the choice needs to contain the different options as text, as I'm not sure you could put in good symbols for each choice. But otherwise, quite similar to e.g. the road paving selection.

So in conclusion: The rules appear to be general but with (possible) exceptions in various countries, (usefulness), the mapping is usually not complicated (saving mappers time) and [at least for a non programmer] the implementation does not appear to be very complicated.

[goldfndr]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans has a comprehensive list of references.

[westnordost]

Thanks for the list, this makes it much easier to decide for which countries to show this quest!

It should only be asked for pubs, bars and maybe restaurants and maybe fast food restaurants.

[mnalis]

It should only be asked for pubs for pubs, bars and maybe restaurants and maybe fast food restaurants.

Yes, all of the above, and also for amenity=cafe and amenity=ice_cream

Smoking quest would be really useful, and not hard to implement. If problematic, disable it by default (like vegan etc). Just please don't country-block it.

Because law is sometimes imprecise, wikipedia is not updated all the time, the laws changes often and has exceptions and transition periods, and mostly the status on the ground is what should really be mapped -- if customer is allergic to smoke, it matters to him/her not one iota if there is backdoor in the law that allows smoking even when it is "prohibited by default".
For example, the wikipedia claim of "16 establishments in whole of Croatia permitted to allow smoking" is both obsolete, misleading, and laughable to anyone living here -- in 2020, there are more than 16 smoking pubs/cafes in my neighborhood alone, let alone whole of the city / whole country!

[matkoniecz]

Because law is sometimes imprecise, wikipedia is not updated all the time, the laws changes often and has exceptions

As soon as someone reports that country block is not valid - we can change metadata.

Though, if it would be disabled by default - it can be very simple to implement it, like kosher quest.

[mnalis]

Sooooo, if it really is that simple that my copy/paste skill would mostly suffice, I'd like to try my hand in making a basic PR for this "smoking" quest? (unless someone else really wants to do it, of course)

[matkoniecz]

@mnalis You are welcome! Given activity in this issue it is unlikely that anyone is actively working on that.

Note that (from what I remember) there is already an icon for that. Main effort would be researching situation and deciding on

• disabled by default quest
• enabled by default quest, enabled only in areas where it is certain that places will be marked outside and going inside is not necessary

Also, it may make sense to have it disabled in areas where asking is pointless as there is a complete and total ban (or some law that bans smoking bans?)

[matkoniecz]

I created https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RpLbXVP0PKDLUV6w1pyCSlyJ4tjoTF5jJHaAtfAGJBk/edit?usp=sharing (editing to anyone with link, hopefully it will work and not will be overrun by spam edits)

Feel free to research missing countries!

Processing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans may be enough to fill it

Looking it at it again it seems clear that it would be one more disabled by default quest (I need to look at statistics how many people enable them and consider is it a good idea to make enabling them easier).

@mnalis

Not sure are you still interested but it should be fairly easy. Main effort is researching legal situation and disabling it in countries where it is pointless (due to 100% ban on smoking or distinct lack of bans anywhere or something)

[mnalis]

I've been looking into it, reading up on CONTRIBUTING_A_NEW_QUEST.md ; but am unsure which dialog type would be best.

• I could go with simple yes/no like the lit quest and call it a day

However, smoking=* has several other values besides yes/no - with especially smoking=outside seemingly very popular, but there are also values dedicated / separated / isolated.

As it seems very hard to imagine pictures which would depict various values (especially if we want to anonymize people faces), I don't think that approach would work well.

• So I'm currently thinking of doing 3-most-popular-value text answer (like in Wheelchair quest = yes/no/partially); so something like:

Is smoking allowed here?
- yes
- no
- only outside

As dedicated is likely already marked as such (as it is not regular cafe etc but more of a club dedicated to smoking) I don't think it is a big problem to omit it; and while separated / isolated are adding more detail than yes, it does not seem crucial, and it is hard to explain the difference if SC quest format - there is always Leave a note as a catch-all.

Any comments / suggestions on that?

[voschix]

Annotations: - What about outdoor no-smoking like train platforms in Germany, and larger no smoking areas in California - No--smoking rules in the USA vary from State to State ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States) <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

…

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 21:09, Matija Nalis ***@***.***> wrote: I've been looking into it, reading up on CONTRIBUTING_A_NEW_QUEST.md <https://github.com/matkoniecz/Zazolc/blob/so-you-want-to-make-a-new-quest/CONTRIBUTING_A_NEW_QUEST.md> ; but am unsure which dialog type would be best. - I could go with simple yes/no like the lit quest and call it a day However, smoking=* <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoking> has several other values besides yes/no - with especially smoking=outside seemingly very popular <https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/smoking#values>, but there are also values dedicated / separated / isolated. As it seems very hard to imagine pictures which would depict various values (especially if we want to anonymize people faces), I don't think that approach would work well. - So I'm currently thinking of doing 3-most-popular-value text answer (like in Wheelchair quest = yes/no/partially); so something like: Is smoking allowed here? - yes - no - only outside As dedicated is likely already marked as such (as it is not regular cafe etc but more of a club dedicated to smoking) I don't think it is a big problem to omit it; and while separated / isolated are adding more detail than yes, it does not seem crucial, and it is hard to explain the difference if SC quest format - there is always Leave a note as a catch-all. Any comments / suggestions on that? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#539 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACUQEEEOBWYU2AJFR3DDZ7TU2QLPPANCNFSM4DYMMFYA> . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS <https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675> or Android <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub>. You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[westnordost]

How can "outside" not be allowed? Is it defined differently than I think?

[mnalis]

• I would (at least initially) only ask on amenity=cafe, amenity=pub, amenity=bar, amenity=restaurant, amenity=nightclub, amenity=biergarten and maybe leisure=outdoor_seating as they may differ in countries where smoking is (at least partially) allowed.
  I would think that usually if smoking it is disallowed at hospitals, train stations and similar, than it is disallowed on all of them in that region/country, so no need to spam user with questions about it.
• Additionally, I'd likely make the quest disabled by default, for the reason @voschix mentions too - it is very hard to find correctly exactly where it is useful and where not, so leaving that to user decision seems best (not to mention easiest 😅)

How can "outside" not be allowed? Is it defined differently than I think?

@westnordost According to wiki smoking=outside is defined as "Smoking is allowed on the property but only in outside areas". So in other case, smoking may be forbidden on both parts of the property (i.e. both inside and outside).

So if there is a cafe which has outdoor seating in their ownership, and they can decide to limit what is allowed at that outside seating too. It definitely does not refer to "whole rest of the outside world except this cafe" or anything like that. So owners cannot control if you stand 5m outside of their fence/ and smoke a cigar, but they can forbid you to do it inside their garden/outside seating. (and can replace fence/free area with hedge/wall if they find such nearby smoking or other situation like traffic problematic enough)

I don't know about Germany but in Croatia that happens relatively often - some pub/cafe/restaurant wants to cater to non-smokers specifically (either because of owner beliefs, or purely by economic reasons for example if there is plenty of competing smoking cafes around, or some behaviour might even be required by law e.g. you can be registered as healthy refreshments provider near the gym or so - but then you're forbidden from allowing smoking or selling alcohol, on all of that property, regardless if it is inside or outside)

[matkoniecz]

Is smoking allowed here?

• yes
• no
• only outside

It seems to work, though I did only quite limited research

I've been looking into it, reading up on CONTRIBUTING_A_NEW_QUEST.md

Please let me know in its pull request if anything is unclear about anything!