Support for progressive PAL60 in config.txt/sdtv_mode

[manekinekodesu]

I use my Raspberry Pi 3 to emulate consoles. And my crt tv only supports PAL/PAL60 modes. Most games were not/badly optimized for PAL 50 Hz mode. And PAL60 can be used to play NTSC content full screen and full speed, as it was meant to be played.

[popcornmix]

So with your display do you get no picture when using NTSC output?

I'm not an expert on composite TV out and I'm certain if the hardware can handle this.
Do you know exactly what the TV wants for PAL60?
Is this the NTSC resolution and framerate, but with the PAL colour carrier frequency?

[deborah-c]

Wikipedia's actually a pretty good resource for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

[manekinekodesu]

I get black and white picture, both with NTSC and Brazilian PAL-M.

Yes, PAL60 has NTSC resolution and framerate, but with the PAL colour carrier frequency.
As @deborah-c has said, Wikipedia's all the specs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL#Multisystem_PAL_support_and_.22PAL_60.22

A "PAL 60" signal is similar to an NTSC (525/30) signal, but with the usual PAL chrominance subcarrier at 4.43 MHz (instead of 3.58 as with NTSC and South American PAL variants) and with the PAL-specific phase alternation of the red colour difference signal between the lines.

[popcornmix]

Yes, I was using wikipedia.
The "PAL-specific phase alternation of the red colour difference signal between the lines" is the part that I'm unsure of. Nothing in the peripheral spec sounds like that so it is possible it can't be independently changed.

[deborah-c]

That's more or less the definition of PAL (Phase Alternating Lines) -- the R-Y chrominance signal alternates phase between lines. If there's an NTSC/PAL switch, it should cover this, I think.

[popcornmix]

@manekinekodesu could you give this firmware a test:
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B-6zmEDJwxZEU3V2RkxMTzktS3M&export=download
By default no change, but:
sdtv_mode=0x22 should give PAL 60
sdtv_mode=0x20 should give NTSC 50

Basically for PAL 60 I'm using normal PAL settings, but have changed resolution/framerate to NTSC.
Not sure if that is correct, but my composite TV does show a picture (with colour) in the new modes.

[manekinekodesu]

Tested this on 2 pal crts(one of them supports ntsc signal over composite in but colors look off quite a bit).
Results are:
sdtv_mode=0x22 - 60Hz, fullscreen, no color (on my second tv I can see that colors actually in NTSC format)
sdtv_mode=0x20 - 50Hz letterbox, PAL colors (just like the usual PAL)

[popcornmix]

How can you tell colours are NTSC format?

Any different with https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B-6zmEDJwxZEVmhhWjNOZGRPWHc&export=download ?

[manekinekodesu]

I can tell it by the way my second TV displays NTSC colors - they are off (the green is almost blue etc)

Results from the second firmware are closer:
sdtv_mode=0x22 60 Hz check, fullscreen check, PAL color check, but there is a problem: image is statically skewed:

sdtv_mode=0x20 looks like 50 Hz, monochrome, picture is also skewed, albeit in another direction:

[popcornmix]

Can you try: https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B-6zmEDJwxZENTd3bWZsMktLME0&export=download

I notice that PAL has a horizontal front porch of 20 and NTSC has 14.
Those 6 pixels seem to match the slope you are seeing.

[manekinekodesu]

Yes, that fixed it. Now the picture looks totally PAL60 to me! 60 Hz, fullscreen and PAL colors!

Could progressive scan be enabled for this mode as well?

And NTSC50:

I guess this TV has not been designed with NTSC50 in mind.

[popcornmix]

Great. I'm not sure how defined NTSC 50 is, so it's hard to say if the TV doesn't support it or we are generating the wrong thing.
If anyone has a source that generates NTSC 50 correctly and a TV that displays it we could be more sure.

I've tried progressive in addition to PAL 60 and get a rolling display - is that what you see?
I can't think of anything obvious that causes this and adjusting the vertical front/back porch doesn't seem to help.

[manekinekodesu]

@popcornmix How do I try progressive in addition to PAL 60?

In sdtv_mode=18 I get PAL 50 and rolling display (slowly rolls downward)

In sdtv_mode=0x20 NTSC 50 picture is static and has vertical offset (see photo above). It's not rolling

[popcornmix]

You add 0x10 for progressive and 0x20 for "alt mode" (i.e. flip PAL/NTSC resolution/framerate). So:
sdtv_mode=0x30 for progressive NTSC 50
sdtv_mode=0x32 for progressive PAL 60
I don't think they will work (they don't for me) but I'd be interested if you see the same as me.

[manekinekodesu]

Ok, I've connected my rpi 3 to TV tuner card and recorded some test videos, hope they will be of some help to you:
I've set sdtv_mode=0x32 for progressive PAL 60
On my tv capture card I've set "video standard = PAL 60" and "vertical synchronization = Normal tracking/Fast tracking":

Then I've set "vertical synchronization = Free running mode (disable tracking)":

So this display rolling has to do something with vertical sync. I could not find Pal 60 modeline, but here is a bunch of other useful modelines http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/modes-en.html. I don't know if they are of any help though.

What's interesting, in your second firmware, normal progressive modes 0x10-0x12 are also broken:

Should they be that way?

On my crt tv 0x32 mode looks like this:

[popcornmix]

Yes, I think I spotted the "slow roll" issue with progressive mode and fixed it. Try:
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B-6zmEDJwxZEWW5HT0hSaFNxb0E&export=download

[manekinekodesu]

Yep, modes 0x10-0x12 are fixed.

Spotted something weird in the 0x22 mode:

I've also hooked up my pal60 modded sega mega drive 2 to the tv tuner card and there were no such artifacts.

[manekinekodesu]

I've tried to use 0x22 mode recently and noticed that it runs a bit slower 59.5 (causing sound crackling ) instead of 60.00 like 0x00 mode. Then I've tried 0x20 mode which runs faster than 0x02 mode, 50.35 instead of 50.00 and it's also offset from the top a little so the bottom gets cut and warped to the top.

Maybe something else needs to be swapped, like sync pulse width for example. The 0x22 mode can be sped up to 59.94 - 60.00 by decreasing sync pulse width and horizontal front & back porches or maybe increasing dot clock frequency.
@popcornmix You've said that you are able to manually adjust vertical porches. So, is it possible to tweak other values, as I've suggested above? Maybe it will help to rid of the rolling in progressive modes.

Also:

The symptom of a misplaced sync pulse is that the image is displaced on the screen, with one border excessively wide and the other side of the image wrapped around the screen edge, producing a white edge line and a band of "ghost image" on that side. A way-out-of-place vertical sync pulse can actually cause the image to roll like a TV with a mis-adjusted vertical hold (in fact, it's the same phenomenon at work).
Black Magic and Sync Pulses

[c0ommandc0m]

Hi @popcornmix , @manekinekodesu . I just got into this thread looking also for PAL 60hz.

Amazing work you're doing here!!!

Really, really needed to get things running smoothly on a SD TV here in PAL areas...

Got the latest firmware and tried 0x22. And as @manekinekodesu posted, all good but some flashing on some aras of the screen, depending on the intensity and contrast of colors. Could it be just luminance is being updated oddly?

With 0x32 got the same lack of V sync. Both modes (PAL 60 480i / 240p) would be such a great addition. Actually, on the Gamecube & Dreamcast era it was quite common to get games that asked you if your monitor supported PAL 60 and, in case they did, they'd do the switch in order to run 'as intended'.

Tested all on my Sony KX14CP1 CRT, - a very good one I must say - That accepts both PAL and true NTSC signals.

If there's anything I can test or help you in any other way, please let me know!

[JamesH65]

@popcornmix Taken a quick look at the code but difficult to tell what has been changed and/or added to master branch related to this issue Any status update on this?

[Sobakin76]

@popcornmix I have a good 15" composite monitor JVC TM-H150C and RPi3b, with firmware downloaded from this thread posted May 25 it works in PAL60 mode but only in mode 0x22 (interlaced) and flickers alot, but in mode 0x32 (progressive) gets out of sync. Monitor's OSD says "PAL", tvservice -s says PAL 60Hz and NTSC (720x480) resolution and picture size and proportions are the same as NTSC original mode. This mode is quite better than original NTSC because a much less color artifacts but more compatible for retrogaming than standard PAL 50Hz (in cga/ega games used color dithering in NTSC modes monitor shows gradient colors but OK in PAL50 and PAL60Hz, but in PAL50 too much spacing in top and bottom and flickering as it's only 50Hz). Also at PAL_M modes with this firmware it shows currupted picture, with original latest firmware it shows correct in luma but rainbow colors and monitor recognized it as NTSC.
I would appreciate if You add support of PAL60 progressive. I'm ready to test anything You need for it.

[pietch]

I'm trying to set CVBS output to PAL-N (south america): 625 lines, 576 active lines, 50Hz, 3.58205625 MHz color carrier. I can't find any documentation.
Is this combination supported by RPi hardware?

[popcornmix]

@pietch no, PAL-N is not supported.

[shaum257]

@popcornmix I am using a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and I have a PAL crt television. I tried your firmware zip file and set the sdtv_mode=0x22. After applying all that, when I power my Pi on, I see a rainbow screen(which is normal), but also a thunderbolt icon, telling me that it's not receiving enough power and therefore it stays on that screen and I'm unable to get into emulationstation. Luckily I made a backup of my firmware files so I could go back, then managed to get into emulationstation. But I want to have PAL60 and not PAL50. Your firmware files aren't compatible with my Rapberry Pi 3B+. So is there any way to get PAL60 on a Pi 3B+? I would appreciate your help!!! Oh and I'm using the official Raspberry Pi power supply --> 5.1V 2.5A

[elfoam]

I'm in the same situation as Shaum257, I have a CRT which will run 60hz but can't display the NTSC colours, I would be very happy if the PAL 60hz modes could be added to the PI3b+. That would make that TV very useful when right now I can't use it for much at all... Well of course I could buy a 3b.. but I have the 3b+

[alessioscand]

@popcornmix excuse me if I write here but issue #683 is closed, and maybe this is somehow related.

In sdtv_mode=16 (composite out) retrogames with a resolution of 320x240 (or 320x224) are blurry: ok, that's probably because, I suppose, RPi is outputting 720x480.
But if I set same games to a multiple integer resolution of 640x480 (or 640x448) I get a sharper image but also a lot (really a lot) of "rainbow effect".

It seems that this does not happen in PAL mode, is this normal? thank you!

[elfoam]

I'm not sure this thread is still being bumped? in any case I'm still very interested in PAL 60 video modes :) on the 3b+ :). @antiriad PAL always has less colour distortion compared to NTSC over composite, that is normal. Is it possible to somehow run the PAL colour system at 60hz 240p? that would be amazing :)

[NickCis]

Sorry to bother @6by9 , Has the pal-n support been released?, I couldn't find anything related on the firmware commits :/

[6by9]

It was merged to the firmware source repo on 2nd Sept, so any release after that should include it.

I had tagged it against this issue, but copying that through to the release commit is a manual task.
And just to confirm, it is sdtv_mode=0x42.

[Cpasjuste]

Hi guys,

I'm a little lost with all the informations here. Is PAL 60hz supported/merged in latest firmwares releases and if so, what is the sdtv mode for it? Is it 0x22 ?

I'm asking because it seems I get progressive output, but I'm still locked to 50hz in retroarch and such.

Thanks in advance,
David.

[Iga44]

Hello)
Please, pick me file of current firmware progressive PAL 60.
I read all posts in this topic and find 5 archives in this thread firmware_c01d7f3, firmware_ef81acd -25 17, firmware_d5117d6, firmware_fa112e1, pal_n. Which included 9 files for boot folder. But i tested them all with sdtv=0x22 and start_x=1 parameter in config, and after applying this method emu station still show that game runs in 50 hz before it's started.

So what i need to do for emulators in retropie works at 60Hz at PAL tv on the raspberry Pi4?

[popcornmix]

The issue is still open as it hasn't been solved. There is no firmware that gives working progressive PAL 60.

[Iga44]

Ooh, it's sad ((
But thank you for answer.
And so what kind of "firmwares" did I download after all from there. And this topic has so many replies, but still no solution, strange...

[kFYatek]

If anyone is still interested, I've written a little utility for tweaking the VEC registers from user space: https://github.com/kFYatek/tweakvec

Configuring the firmware and OS for NTSC and then running sudo ./tweakvec.py --preset PAL60 should give you clear PAL60. It actually configures the encoder to output PAL-M (which itself never worked properly before) and sets a custom subcarrier frequency that "just happens to be" the same as with regular PAL.

I tested the utility, but only with modern equipment, I don't have any actual CRTs on hand.

[popcornmix]

Interesting. I'm curious to hear if this works for others.

[popcornmix]

I ran through the options and they seemed to all give an image on my (digital) TV connected through composite.
My TV doesn't give any information on what the mode is.

[Sobakin76]

Yeah, it works! @kFYatek thank You!
Tested with RPi3 composite 240p on two CRT monitors: JVC TM-H150C and Hitron CVM1574FP, first supports PAL60, second supports PAL-M (if manually selected). Also tested Sony PVM-14N5MDE, it works like JVC monitor.
https://youtu.be/299IORo56lM
CGA Prince of Persia NTSC (Sony PWM-14N5MDE):

PAL60:

It would be even better if include this updates with next firmware revision.

[kFYatek]

Nice to see this working with actual CRTs! You're welcome :)

The amount of cross-colour artifacts on that Hitron when set to PAL-M sure is nasty ;) I don't think there's anything wrong with the signal, though.

[Sobakin76]

Just found the NTSC443 works maybe even better - it, as PAL60, hasn't std NTSC color artifacts too, but looks a bit crispier. But JVC doesn't support i correctly, only Sony (autodetects) and Hitron (manually selected) does.

[Iga44]

Ran retropie (sdtv mode=0 in config.txt) through composite to crt-tv, then exit from emulationstation, write: "sudo ./tweakvec.py --preset PAL60"
Result: command not found

• what's wrong?

[Sobakin76]

The amount of cross-colour artifacts on that Hitron when set to PAL-M sure is nasty ;) I don't think there's anything wrong with the signal, though.

Yes, this monitor has CRT from regular TV with big mask pixel, but in NTSC443 picture is very good, it's almost like from RGB!

[kFYatek]

Ran retropie (sdtv mode=0 in config.txt) through composite to crt-tv, then exit from emulationstation, write: "sudo ./tweakvec.py --preset PAL60"
Result: command not found

* what's wrong?

Your command prompt is probably not in the directory in which you downloaded tweakvec to. You need to use cd to navigate to the right directory.

Or if you put tweakvec.py it in your home directory (likely /home/pi) directly, you can then use sudo ~/tweakvec.py (with a tilde instead of the dot) from anywhere.

---

in NTSC443 picture is very good, it's almost like from RGB!

PAL60 and NTSC443 are likely to look sharper than regular NTSC or PAL-M on displays that support those. Colour subcarrier frequency is higher (~4.43 MHz vs. ~3.58 MHz), so finer detail can be reproduced without interfering with the colour signal.

BTW, does any of your monitors support SECAM? That mode isn't too useful, as PAL pretty much always gives superior quality. I'm also pretty sure it works, but it would be nice to have it confirmed with an actual CRT as well. Unfortunately SECAM only works for 576i/288p (so with regular European PAL as a starting point).

---

Just some additional technical info for @popcornmix or other firmware devs, if you decide to include these modes in the firmware. It's all in the code on Github, but just for quick reference:

• PAL-M is set up exactly like NTSC-J (or NTSC if you enable the pedestal - I'm really not sure what the broadcast standard does), but with the lowest two bits of the CONFIG0 register set to 0x2 instead of 0x0. I've seen quotes from non-public documentation on the forums describing this setting as "reserved", but it is really PAL-M and it works.
• SECAM is set up exactly like PAL, but with the lowest bits set to 0x0 (as for NTSC), and with the 0x00200000 (1 << 21) bit set instead; so the whole CONFIG0 register will be 0x00200000 if no other flags are set.
  • For standard-compliant SECAM, FREQ3_2 register needs to be set to 0x29c7, FREQ1_0 to 0x1c72 (so subcarrier frequency 4406250 Hz), FCW_SECAM_B (register address 0x198) to 0x284bda13 (4250000 Hz) and SECAM_GAIN_VAL (address 0x19c) to 0x44824224 (I'm not sure how to interpret this register, it seems to be masked somehow). These are the default values set at boot.
  • Setting CONFIG0 to 0x00200001 or 0x00200003 yields SECAM with inverted colours. 0x00200002 yields something that looks like SECAM60 with broken, irregular vertical sync. These are likely buggy cases in the encoder, not intended to be used.
• MONO525 / MONO625 are just regular NTSC and PAL modes, respectively, but with both 0x00000080 (1 << 7; CHRDIS) and 0x00000100 (1 << 8; BURDIS) bits set. This disables both the colour burst (which prevents the TV from identifying the signal as colour) and chroma subcarrier throughout the visible line.
  • sdtv_disable_colourburst option in config.txt does a similar thing, but only sets the BURDIS bit - depending on filtering of a specific monitor, this might result in colour information being rendered as fine detail pattern, similar to what's seen at 1:50 in Sobakin76's video. This pattern should be stationary in progressive modes, but moving in interlaced modes. CHRDIS bit also removes this colour information from the signal, resulting in cleaner image.
  • I found that an equivalent effect can also be achieved in firmware by setting the 8 bit in sdtv_mode (so sdtv_mode=8 for 480i, sdtv_mode=10 or 0xa for 576i, sdtv_mode=0x18 for 240p, sdtv_mode=0x1a for 288p). This works by mapping the composite jack to the "Y" channel of the encoder output instead of the "CVBS" channel, so the register settings are completely different, but the effect should be identical.

Now for the non-standard (as in, never used in broadcast) modes - NTSC443 and PAL60 are based on regular NTSC and PAL-M modes, respectively, but additionally set the CUSTOM_FREQ (0x1) flag in the CONFIG1 register and set FREQ3_2 to 0x2a09 and FREQ1_0 to 0x8acb - so subcarrier frequency is 4433618.75 MHz, as specified for regular European PAL. These modes were never used for broadcasting (except perhaps for USAF TV in Germany broadcasting in NTSC4.43 according to some sources), but were sometimes output as a kludge by VCRs, home computers, video game consoles etc. sold in PAL regions when playing NTSC content.

[Sobakin76]

@kFYatek

BTW, does any of your monitors support SECAM? That mode isn't too useful, as PAL pretty much always gives superior quality. I'm also pretty sure it works, but it would be nice to have it confirmed with an actual CRT as well. Unfortunately SECAM only works for 576i/288p (so with regular European PAL as a starting point).

Only Sony PVM supports and, as always, autodetects SECAM. But picture is not really good:

But it's not interesting because of 50Hz, where standard PAL is good enough.

[kFYatek]

Yeah, that's about what I expected. I know that SECAM has little practical use if you have any other option, but it's nice to see it working on a proper vintage CRT :)

[shaum257]

@kFYatek It's awesome that you've written this great utility to achieve PAL60.
I've been looking to achieve PAL60 for my Raspberry Pi 3B+ on my PAL CRT television, and it's great to see that there is finally something that will allow me to achieve this.
Now, I'm running Retropie, and I would like to ask you some questions.

1. Should "tweakvec.py" be placed inside the boot folder where the config.txt is.
2. In my "config.txt" I have composite video mode set to "sdtv=2", should I leave it as it is? Should anything else be added in the "config.txt" file to make PAL60 work?
3. I have set set my Retropie system in a way that whenever I launch any game of any system, that it switches from Normal PAL to Progressive scan PAL because Normal PAL makes it easier for me to read in the Emulationstation menu, and Progressive scan PAL makes games look better, and it's all configured in the "runcommand-onstart.sh" and "runcommand-onend.sh" files. Now if I type in "sudo ./tweakvec.py --preset PAL60" from Emulationstation, and then launch any game of any system, what should I change in the "runcommand-onstart.sh" and "runcommand-onend.sh" files so that it switches from Normal PAL 60 to Progresive scan PAL, and then back to Normal PAL exiting to Emulationstation? There's also a "videomodes.cfg" which I have configured, so that all individual cores are set to "PAL 4:3 P", and this file is located in the following path alongside the 2 runcommand files: "/opt/retropie/configs/all/"
   I have attached a zip file, containing my "config.txt" file, my 2 runcommand files and my
   "videomode.cfg" file, so could you please have a look at them if you have time, and then let me know what I need to change?
   Thanks for releasing your great utility. :)
   Configs.zip

[Iga44]

Sorry, but i still dont get it

[popcornmix]

Try:

chmod +x tweakvec.py
./tweakvec.py --preset PAL60

[Iga44]

not again :

cdmod +x tweakvec.py
bash: sdmod: command not found
./tweakvec.py --preset PAL60
bash: ./tweakvec.py: Permission denied

[popcornmix]

Sorry - typo in command now corrected. It is chmod not cdmod.

[Iga44]

ok, now get after command entering:

Errno 13] Permission denied: ' /dev/mem'
You must be root orhave access to dev\mem to run tweackvec

[kFYatek]

@shaum257 I just updated the README in the repository (and some typos in messages in the actual application, but with no functional changes), it now includes more information and a quick start guide for RetroPie.

In short - in case of your config, you need to:

• Put the script anywhere - but /boot is not a recommended directory. My guide downloads it to /home/pi/tweakvec/tweakvec.py
• Set sdtv_mode to 0 (or 1)
• Replace all references to PAL in your current config with NTSC
• Add sudo python3 /home/pi/tweakvec/tweakvec.py --preset PAL60 between the calls to tvservice and fbset, as well as at the beginning of autostart.sh - see the updated README.

---

@Iga44 Try adding sudo at the beginning of your invocation. Also, please note that I updated the repository with proper file mode of tweakvec.py, as well as updated the documentation to recommend using sudo python3 tweakvec.py, which will always work even without the chmod if the file mode is lost somehow - so similar issues shall not happen for subsequent users.

---

Also, as much as I appreciate your interest, and the fact that even @popcornmix is helping me out with responding to people's questions about my tool - I don't want to overstay my welcome in this thread. I posted my tool here largely as a PoC to show that this can be done and how. If you have any further questions about it - especially regarding installation and usage, and not the encoder settings themselves - I believe a more appropriate place would be tweakvec's own issues page - just to keep this thread focused on support for PAL60 in the firmware itself.

[Iga44]

@kFYatek it's work!!!
To activate it in my case should have type:" sudo python3 tweakvec.py --preset PAL60 " and it's really work!
I haven't tested the ntsc4.43 mode yet , but pal 60 is great!
kFYatek you are awesome and made my day!
Now i can run my ntsc roms in 60 fps ( and retropie understand them as 60Hz, not like standard PAL) on my "japanese" orion crt-tv with normal colors!
Outstanding!

[elfoam]

Congratulations I getting this working guys, very useful for some

…

On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 7:27 AM shaum257 ***@***.***> wrote: @JamesH65 <https://github.com/JamesH65> I tried the updated version of your firmware and it flickers from the top. Could you re-upload the very first start_x.elf firmware file which you uploaded 2 days ago, as it was that one which worked perfectly for me. The thing is that I accidentally deleted your first version of start_x.elf firmware file. — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#811 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AmdGQNZbMn_LOa0lwSvDTvUKQCIakXHCks5vG2jFgaJpZM4Nh6dl> .