Release feedback (2023.1218.0)

[peppy]

Hello players of osu!

Please leave any feedback you have here, with a focus on gameplay mechanics:

For osu! ruleset

• How does slider head leniency feel with the new changes? (Change leniency of slider follow behaviour to better accommodate mistimed slider head hits #25129)
• How does the current implementation of capped spinner bonus feel?
• How does HP drain feel? We reverted to more lenient "lazer" style drain this release, because "stable" style drain felt too harsh.
• In lazer you can get an S without full comboing. We are intending to better display "FC" on the results / leaderboards, but how does this feel? (note: also applies to taiko)
• How does slider scoring feel? Unlike in classic ScoreV2, slider tails don't give a final judgement based on the number of ticks hit. Instead, the slider's head gives the main judgement based on its own hit window. (Slider scoring mechanics #25739)

For osu!taiko, osu!mania, osu!catch rulesets

• We want more feedback in general on anything which feels sub-par from a gameplay experience.

Things we are less focused on

• UI (song select, main menu, other)
  • We know there's a lot that can be improved but we already have enough feedback on this, and are looking to lock in gameplay mechanics.
• Mod multipliers
  • Will be tweaked later
• PP
  • More to come on this in the next release, not this one 😉
• Classic mods
  • We know there's some issues with classic mod, but we do not see this as a priority. We can reset scores set with classic mod in the future if required.

[Toonmac16]

Feedback for Lazers update from Dec 18th.

I previously stopped playing Lazer due to absolutely hating the feeling of sliders but as of the most recent update they finally feel playable, while not the same as stable it does feel forgiving enough with timings making it a step up in challenge but not overly frustrating like it was previously, this is a major improvement in my opinion with initial testing.

HP drain doesn't feel too bad so far in my opinion but want to test more before commenting further, I mainly feel like I can player harder songs without failing but obviously with a lower score since I'm not used to the higher difficulty, but I actually like this since I can try harder songs and see progress over time as I improve.

I would love to see a Full Combo UI element added to score screen in a future update to show when you've FC'd, maybe this could even include an FC UI element on the score leader board.

UI design in general is beautiful, I enjoy the new UI and menus feel very responsive.

This concludes feedback for now as want to continue testing Lazer.

Thanks for the hard work.

[MyKullA]

From the average Osu player (rank 150k)

First off the leniency on the slider head feels great to play on and feels much closer to stable, I personally didn't mind how it was before but it's not hard for me to imagine that for many users going from stable to Lazer, it could be super frustrating when you expect sliders to act a certain way and they don't and you break combo because of it.

As for HP stuff, I find it to be way too forgiving on Lazer. Maybe it's because I'm used to stable but being able to cheese maps far above my skill level and pass at 50% acc feels like a joke. Maybe it's fine to be not as harsh as stable but I don't think HP should be as forgiving as it is now.

Getting an S without full combo is nothing new, it's fine. An indicator for FCing a map would be great.

Overall Lazer is great, Lazer feels nice and new, modern, responsive, I get better performance on Lazer. Props to whoever is in charge of sound design, really nice sounds. Excited for what's to come

Keep it up lads!

[peppy]

cc @nekodex for sound design feedback 😄

[longnguyen2004]

The "cheesing" argument is pretty moot, because a pass with 50% accuracy doesn't have anything special for it, compared to an A pass or an S. The only time where this is helpful is probably for medal farming, but that can be easily fixed by raising the requirement for the medals. I'd say the more lenient HP drain will encourage players to go above their skill level and improve.

[WalmartWhiteCat]

I think a cool way of indicating an FC would be to make the score gold in the menu or something. Either that or the score could just have an FC badge slapped on but that feels more generic to me for some reason.

[TextAdventurer12]

I would imagine the FC indicator would be something similar to how HD is shown in grade.
For HP drain, it definitely is more forgiving, but if you don't like that you can use the CL mod with all options but the HP drain disabled, and you will get something (almost) identical to stable HP drain.

[Flamiii]

I'm only going to comment on the new scoring system since I don't have strong feelings on anything else besides slider mechanics (which I've already commented on). My feelings about scoring are being posted early because I already looked at master days before this release after #24166 was merged.

I think the new scoring system is great. It fundamentally fixes the issue with ScoreV2 that it set out to fix (one miss having the potential to ruin your score), and I think it does a much better job of broadly distributing scores throughout the whole 0 to 1000000 range, unlike ScoreV2 where most scores are under 400 - 500k. Personally, this scoring system feels better and more rewarding to play with, and it does this while retaining a balance where both combo and accuracy still feel important.

[longnguyen2004]

Top mania player here (top 300 global). There's nothing to say much about game mechanics, they feel pretty good already.

There's only 1 thing I wanna ask (and I've asked about this numerous times, but haven't gotten a concrete response yet): Are you going to bring back the 1mil max score from stable? (maybe put it behind Classic scoring, the same way that Classic scoring brings back exponential scaling in the osu! ruleset). The 1mil score has become somewhat of a holy grail in the mania community, so some people are upset that 1mil has lost its meaning in lazer. If it's possible to bring it back, then I'd really appreciate it.

[peppy]

Can you explain a bit? Do you mean the fact that getting 1m is now easier due to PERFECTs being bonus score?

[longnguyen2004]

I think this tweet summarizes it best
Basically, 1m in stable has a meaning of being the absolute highest score possible, and getting 1m has a special feeling for players. Now that lazer is using a 1m + bonus score system, the 1m score loses its meaning as the absolute best. It's not a problem for me, but it is for certain players, so I'm just raising the point here.

[longnguyen2004]

#25810 (comment) More complete feedback here, please use this instead

[KevinMarkRoy]

I used to play stable from 2020-23, been using Lazer for almost this whole year.

The new leniency changes feel much better, sliders always feel tougher to time than circles, which even if it's a "skill issue" added frustration, so this is definitely a step in the right direction.

I personally feel like 500-1000-1500 would be better than the current 50-100-150. While it's not a big issue, it's fun to see a spinner battle at the end of maps in tournament matches. 50-100-150 feels too low to make a difference.

The HP that was imported in the previous update felt right, perhaps because of playing stable for so long but currently it feels a little lenient. I think the main issue arises from the HP system itself which can range in values. The higher HP values even in Stable felt stupid sometimes.

I think the previous system of S-Rank being an FC (other than SBs) is already good enough. At this point it feels intuitive to everyone playing. But, a system that indicates FC or PC would be great or maybe make S rank not achieveable if you slider break.

With the slider leniency changes, the new system in Lazer feels good. Sliders can't be hit early to just cheese them and requires skill to tap like another circle, so judging based on the slider-head judgement is a good change in my opinion.

It's crazy to see that Lazer has reached so far that the issues now are so small, keep up the great work!

[peppy]

We may consider adjusting the spinner bonus. Discussion: #25813

[WalmartWhiteCat]

Okay, I have no idea what's going on, maybe I just got really good at the game overnight, or something simply isn't adding up.

Yesterday, I set a handful of scores, some decent, some... not so much. But regardless of how good they were, I have been consistently beating them, sometimes destroying them, yet the scores I'm setting today seem to be overall much worse than yesterday. I will attach a couple of screenshots to show what I mean. Maybe the way score works is a little too easy now? Maybe misses should have a bit more weight? Maybe it's just me that feels this way.

As you can see, the more recent score has a lower acc and highest combo. But that's not all.

These are the stats for the more recent score ^^^

These stats are from yesterday ^^^

Idk, maybe it's only specific maps. Yesterday, I tried four times to get a good score on a map that I'm not very good at. That day ended in defeat, I didn't even get a 400k. Today, I set a single score and got first on the leaderboard. I'm not even fully warmed up and I'm half asleep since it's the middle of the night. I just want to know that the game isn't too easy. I'm all for leniency, but if good scores become so common for so many more people, I feel it might make the game just that much more stale.

[peppy]

The scoring completely changed. Please re-read the opening post and maybe the changelog for more details.

[3r1]

One effect of the scoring changes is that it evens out scores more across 0-1,000,000 instead of pushing many non-fc scores under 500,000.

From #24166 is this spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g-hel7ywUdZFQGpaC5UVeURBYLuPhTS6rTnI1-ImoTI/edit#gid=0 that makes it easier to see the difference.

It would certainly be nice if you could see your old score converted to new scoring so you could make a comparison against your new plays but, basically, the definition of "good scores" is now pushed closer to 1,000,000 and your new "bad" 600,000 score is technically still bad.

[Jedop]

I have been playing osu lazer for a year now since it runs better on my laptop, and I have a few things to say.

I don't get why classic mod has got a 0.5x score multiplier. It's supposed to be the same as stable right? What if I want to play lazer but with the same gameplay as stable? I don't get why a 0.5x multiplier is even applied there, considering notelocking makes the game more difficult if anything, even considering that there's no slider head accuracy.

I don't have anything in particular to say about the scoring system, it sounds good.

I have been enjoying playing lazer for the past year that I have been using it, the only real issues I have is with the game menu not having the star wise separation of maps? That was a pretty cool feature in stable that hasn't been put into lazer yet, but that's a tangent.

That's all I have to say. Thank you for making osu peppy, it's a pretty huge part of my life now lmao

[peppy]

Mod multipliers are not in scope of discussion. Thanks for the other feedback.

[PetHedgehog]

same issue for me, even if its not on the scope why cant we have answers, and why cant we at least get a tool to go back to stable

[Rhythmic-Ocean]

I know the UI is not the focus here but something is wrong with the song select menu. It works OK for the most part but as soon as I search for a song and play it, things start getting wonky.
Right after I exit the beatmap, the entire set of map I'm playing goes to the bottom. Like I have sorting by difficulty, and after I exit a 5.9* map the entire mapset goes down even below the 10*maps.

Something like this : https://imgur.com/a/6C1nvhh

Everything goes back to normal (for a while) after I select sort by (some other criteria) and then select back sort by difficulty. But the problem repeats.

[peppy]

The game is probably still recalculating new metadata, and may be a bit wonky until it finishes. This will be improved in the next release (see #25824 / #25832)

[strellic]

Hi, mediocre osu! player here (rank ~50k)

Playing on this update, the current slider settings makes maps with fast reverse sliders much easier, and I'm not sure if this is intended. Also not sure if this is from the new slider leniency update or some update to HP drain. The best example of this to me is https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1376308#osu/2844649 (the 10* difficulty). This map is ranked so getting the 10* pass medal is pretty trivial with this update, as the hard sliders are basically impossible to lose health on as long as you hit the head.

I also checked the HP drain in the previous Lazer update.

Current update:
https://github.com/ppy/osu/assets/16631579/3c5b7ffa-68f2-4896-ab7b-c222ea8ecadb

Previous update (2023.1130.0):
https://github.com/ppy/osu/assets/16631579/a1dcfad4-260c-4d06-bbe5-70e3061c956c

In stable, doing this would kill you almost instantly.

[JacksonChen666]

Note and feedback

I never used osu!stable. Ever.

Any points not addressed means no feedback/can't think of anything.

For osu!taiko, osu!mania, osu!catch rulesets

• We want more feedback in general on anything which feels sub-par from a gameplay experience.

ahem

Argon skin catcher. I still have to use the triangles skin for that.

At 4k60 with Argon skin, there's noticeable performance issues with a stupid amount of bananas (02:37:393 - ). Triangles skin works fine.

For osu! ruleset

• How does slider head leniency feel with the new changes? (Change leniency of slider follow behaviour to better accommodate mistimed slider head hits #25129)

It seems like I've got more combo and accuracy on 5-6 star maps again, maybe because of that change?

• How does the current implementation of capped spinner bonus feel?

Never reached it because my spinning skills suck.

• How does HP drain feel? We reverted to more lenient "lazer" style drain this release, because "stable" style drain felt too harsh.

The "lazer" style drain is what I've been used to. With the "stable" drain, I couldn't do 5-6 star maps without failing, which was pretty harsh.

Other

For scoring in general, there seems to be a major jump in my scores, making score comparison meaningless between older scores.

I also find losing score quite a foreign concept. It makes me lose leaderboard position sometimes, which is discouraging.

(Mention me when replying, I've turned notifications off)

[WitherFlower]

Most of the gameplay mechanics are really good in lazer as of the last update, however I still have some issues :

Absence of sliderend miss feedback

Coming from stable, I expect to know whenever I missed a sliderend, but now that the judgement has been moved to the head, it's hard to know if you hit a sliderend of not.

Sliderend miss penalty is too small

Sliderends are currently worth 30 points, which is too little in my eyes. I'd expect them to have more weight like they do in stable. Maybe having them worth 100 to 200 points would be better.

Full-Combos not being important enough with the new grading system.

I don't mind having S ranks separated from full combos, as long as they are made more prominent in 3 areas :

• On the results screen
• On map leaderboards (I feel like the green tint on combo isn't really enough)
• On player profiles, I think it would be really cool to have an FC counter next to rank counts.

That's all, thanks for the work ! Looking forward to ranked play.

[le-vent]

Bad osu!std player here (#750k, no combo break clear below 3.2*), but I really want to back this feedback about sliderends : in the gameplay area, the absence of visible sliderend judgement (both clear and miss) and the way the slider simply vanish at the end feel weird.

Another weirdness can also be seen currently in the end play report : both intermediate ticks and sliderends are counted as "slider tick", but missing the former will break the combo along with an accuracy loss, while missing the latter will only not reward an additional combo along with the same accuracy loss.

[xanning]

I'm not a "very advanced" player but i believe i have a say in here.

Classic mod score change

How does classic mod even affect gameplay so much that it's 0.5x now. Like. I dont think it was a good change.
Nothing else to say.

For the record, this feedback comes from someone that started with lazer, loved it, and hating stable mechanics and UI. I adore lazer, but this change was meh.

Classic felt more clean.

[longnguyen2004]

Mod multipliers are not the topic of this discussion, they can always be changed later.

[peppy]

I don't quite follow. You "hate" stable mechanics but use classic mod which reverts to stable mechanics?

As mentioned, this is low-balling the multiplier until we figure things out.

[xanning]

By "stable mechanics" I didnt mean the gameplay score mechanics, or those what Classic mod reverts. Leaderboards, scoring system (for example: scorev2), lack of mods. This may sound weird i know, but thats what a new-user-perspective is.

[KoleckOLP]

here are my logs:
logs.zip

[longnguyen2004]

Already reported, please wait for next release

[KoleckOLP]

Okay I'll take that the game generaly being unresponsive is known issue.

[cihe13375]

As someone with only ~40h of play time on rankable std (I mainly play relax), I feel that the biggest impact of slider mechanism changes is on how to interpret accuracy values.
With the new slider mechanism (I mean, compared to stable), one does not lose a lot acc on missing slidertails, but instead lose acc on early/late sliderhead hits.
For experienced players this is probably not much of an issue, as the two aspects above partially cancelled. However, this would be much more noticeable on inexperience players (like me) with ~400 ur on low difficulties, since they would lose much more acc on sliderheads than the gain on slidertails. On stable I can get ~90% on many 3* maps with some try, but on lazer it becomes like impossible for me without the classic mod enabled. I won't comment on if it's a good thing though.

The new slider leniency mechanism looks good, as I'm getting less random sliderbreak / missed slidertails for reasons I had never understood until now.

The new scoring system also feels better than score v1/v2 for several reasons, with the most important one as plays far from fc finally have some reasonable numbers.

For the gameplay of relax, well, idk if I would switch to lazer unless the "relax leniency" change were reverted (i.e. back to ~10ms as in stable; currently lazer is ~3ms). I had tried relax on lazer for a while, but did not persist mainly because of the random early misses.

[okolenmi]

Overrated accuracy in scoring is a nonesense. For example, I have 660k score on map with only 1/3 of max combo (97% accuracy). Almost whole score is accuracy. It's very painful for HR mod as it's more difficult to play with good accuracy. Yes, you have 1.06x score multiplier, but even 1% less accuracy is a huge penalty compared to that 1.06. Accuracy is a pretty random value - one play it can be 95%, the next play it can be 99% (just one mistake on stream begining can drop accuracy so much).

upd: I just want to save that feeling after high combo on difficult maps - you have no accuracy, hands shaking, but you still on Full Combo so you are first in multiplayer room. Accuracy focus destroying everything - you have no chance against a more skilled player (of corse they play high OD better), so you have no motivation to even try.

[Sleepteiner]

In my opinion, having a smaller chance to be placed higher than a more skilled player is indication that the score system is working better in general.

That being said, it might be a good experiment to test out different score multipliers for mods, like HR, to adjust to the scoring and gameplay changes in lazer. (Although, I understand that that is not on the table for this year.)

[hiyjinx]

commenting on the hp here for sliders at least i was testing out a few different slider maps and when trying Satori De Pon!'s no u diff with ht hr the hp drain was incredibly harsh as i got 1 miss then gained a 260 combo with about 85acc and then missed and again and instantly failed, i bring the map up in specific as the leader board has some scores similar to this which are passes, in particular ur cute's score comes to mind

[ZythePDX]

feedback kinda UX related

i've been playing lazer for a lil over a year now and I have totally gotten used to S rank but no FC. I would love some sort of indication of a FC on the leaderboard and score screen. Another thing to add would be differentiating between a perfect combo and full combo, I would love seeing that instead of checking to check the score screen. It could be something like making the max combo font on the leaderboard ingame a different color.

like its hard to see with this image, is it just a miss at the end or did they drop a slider end

the second image is just something i made it 10 minutes and hoped my thought would get across, I would want a system similar to this

[trustytrojan]

i think coloring the max combo green or golden would be good for FC

[ZythePDX]

you could also take the perfect combo colors from the score screen and overlay it

Then have it gold for a FC

[t1ww]

osu lazer mobile (ios) gameplay feedback + idea

first of all when i play osu lazer on ios, ive been having much of a problem where my cursor moved to my tapping hand, with this in mind i propose an idea of having separation of tapping area, gameplay visual, aiming area this as an option which basically to mimic how the usual gameplay on desktop is.

[shiumano]

Since Lazer has the option to zoom in and out of the playfield, how about only receiving clicks on the outside of the playfield and only aiming on the inside?
In the meantime, I have one that just does it and leaves it alone.
https://github.com/shiumano/osu-touch-improvement/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/UI/OsuTouchInputMapper.cs

[evilldev]

• The slider head changes are great and make slider focused maps much more fun to play. They feel better in lazer than they ever did in stable, which I didn't expect at all with slider head accuracy in consideration. I'm still not sold on slider head accuracy from a leaderboard history perspective, but in a vacuum sliders are in a really good spot.
• The spinner cap is something that isn't necessarily needed imo, and I feel like it caps out too fast on long spinners. I would probably just do away with it completely or make the required number of spins higher. That being said I'm personally not that invested in the matter, but it's something that doesn't need changing either.
• High HP values feel just as unfair as in stable whereas low HP values feel too easy. I personally feel like the entire HP system should be reworked with passive drain being removed completely but that's obviously out of the scope for this update, and as such it'd be best to stick with the stable system for now. If the HP system is changed later, it cannot be made harder, because that would make some scores near impossible to beat.
• If it's possible to exclude scores with sliderbreaks, the S rank has more value than ever for showing which scores are FCs and which scores aren't. The potential FC indicator on the leaderboard/score screen would most likely not show 0-miss scores with missing sliderends, even though for the most part the community does see them as FCs. The vast majority of scores would currently become S ranks, which lessens the value of the whole grading system in general. Even if sliderbreak scores become S ranks, I don't see a reason to change this, because S ranks would lose what's special about them.
• For the most part it's fine, although it feels a bit off to get a 300 for missing almost the entirety of the slider. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Some kind of indicator for missing a sliderend or sliderbreaking is needed either way though.

I'm also a bit concerned with the fact that scores set in stable will all be very easy to beat from now on. I know the multiplier is temporary, but even if it's 0.95x most current #1 scores can be beaten with a worse score, just because it was played with the new mechanics. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about that though, apart from making classic also have a 1x multiplier. Either way it's going to feel very weird when every single old score will basically disappear off the face of Earth on December 31st.

[peppy]

I know the multiplier is temporary

the multiplier is not temporary.

it's going to feel very weird when every single old score will basically disappear off the face of Earth on December 31st.

you can always view legacy leaderboards without lazer score. for whatever that's worth or not.

[Nopekjk]

Gameplay Mechanics

• How does slider head leniency feel with the new changes?
  • perfect
• How does the current implementation of capped spinner bonus feel?
  • perfect, but it would be nice to see if we could see the score cap of the current spinner so that we can slow down and prepare for the next notes immediately after hitting the cap.
• How does HP drain feel? We reverted to more lenient "lazer" style drain this release, because "stable" style drain felt too harsh.
  • I think most of the harsh HP drain comes from notelocks on stream patterns, so it is definitely much easier to clear the map with lazer.
  • But since the "barely clear" scores are becoming less important in the community, and the current drain rate does not seem too lenient, I think we can keep it this way.
• In lazer you can get an S without full comboing. We are intending to better display "FC" on the results / leaderboards, but how does this feel? (note: also applies to taiko)
  • As a tournament caster (and probably every caster out there), it was confusing to tell if the player FC'd the map with a single indicator of S and A, so it would provide more certainty (since we finally, FINALLY count sliderbreak as a miss).
• How does slider scoring feel? Unlike in classic ScoreV2, slider tails don't give a final judgement based on the number of ticks hit. Instead, the slider's head gives the main judgement based on its own hit window.
  • Since we made the slider head "judgment-able", yes this is great

Some suggestions

• In beatmap selection, the "delay-after-last-keystroke" feels too short. I always want to type the whole thing but if I stop for a moment (about 300ms, compared to 800ms? in stable), it will start searching my 150k maps and takes over 3 seconds every time I want to search things (same with difficulty range sliders!).
• Maybe we should to set "Automatically focus search text box in mod select" to disabled by default? most players are used to hotkey-ing the mod selection.
• New SV3 scoring system seems great overall, but maybe some players would be concerned about:
  • the game will be too acc-based (than before, actually this SV3 is still way more combo-heavy than almost any RG out there)
  • solo-carry will be much harder than before.
    But those are all perspective and objective though, so I think this needs deep discussion with tournament players
• What is our final policy on two-track Standardized and Classic scores? As shown in the image below, if we convert SV3 proportionally to Classic score, it would award as twice as much classic score, especially if we have low combo.
  
  (also if the 1.2b score shouldn't have happened, let me know to provide you the data)

Final Thoughts

• I don't have any words other than "Thank you so much". I really appreciate the team's and your work to make the game even more cleaner and more enjoyable!

[tatitatai]

• osu!taiko gameplay hitsounds seem to be played depending on the player's inputs instead of beatmap objects + inputs. This is a bit confusing when you "ghost-tap" while no objects are being played (at least the finisher hitsounds, keep the other if possible). Also, if you play 1/6 patterns, you probably hear finisher hitsounds which is very misleading while playing

• I would love a spinner counter in osu!taiko, is it somehow possible? (The one telling you how many inputs you have to press to finish a spinner)

[Ezius]

Im currently 6k in osu std, with some Tournament experience so im very familiar with v2

Gameplay Mechanics

• How does slider head leniency feel with the new changes?
  It feels really good.

• How does the current implementation of capped spinner bonus feel?
  Personally I feel like after you've reached the max spinner bonus there's no incentive to spin any further, so for really long spinners you're just doing nothing until the Spinner goes away which is not why people put Spinners into maps and imo bad game design. But that's mostly a problem on older maps and roughly half of my Friends either don't care or think the Spinner cap is a good thing.
  The rare Spin to Win moments in Tournaments will also go away which is sad to see I think.
  TL:DR I think stable spinners are good the way they are.

• How does HP drain feel? We reverted to more lenient "lazer" style drain this release, because "stable" style drain felt too harsh.
  It's not a huge issue but overall and especially on Stream maps Drain feels a bit too lenient.
  I also found this map that just mapped a circle with a new combo to every beat for 2 minutes where drain felt way too punishing for hp5, because I had no hp left after occasionally hitting notes with 100s with the rest being 300s with no way of recovery. (https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/668593#osu/1659419)
  Its fine on stable.

• In lazer you can get an S without full comboing. We are intending to better display "FC" on the results / leaderboards, but how does this feel? (note: also applies to taiko)
  I think getting an S rank should be harder than >95% acc, either increase it to 97 or 98% acc or just give the S rank if you didn't miss a circle or sliderhead (basically full comboing without regard of dropped sliderends).
  Atm getting an S rank is just way too easy to achieve on maps even if you're playing outside your comfort zone, which devaluates an S rank too much.

• How does slider scoring feel? Unlike in classic ScoreV2, slider tails don't give a final judgement based on the number of ticks hit. Instead, the slider's head gives the main judgement based on its own hit window.
  Slider Scoring feels fine, where i have an issue though is from the overall scoring:
  From this post https://twitter.com/doremypuyotet/status/1737545475656425929 it seems that combo barely matters for the higher acc scores anymore, I'd much rather prefer how ScoreV2 handles it or maybe a middleground. While the lower acc scores seem fine or maybe even a tiny bit too much.

Thanks for the hard work I know its impossible to please everyone, so tough decisions have to be made. Overall Lazer feels really good to play and very similar to Stable.

Also please add a button in the beatmap details tab or something to view the beatmap in a browser (not the one integrated in Lazer) so i can easily send it to friends.

[LevFlavien]

Hello. I've been around this game for a while and I spent the last 8 years as a mania player and event helper/organizer and I'll speak from this POV, of a mania community member (profile).

I won't address the gameplay in this message (but I'll eventually do in another post).

This is a feedback about communication around Lazer.

We, experimented players, have known Lazer exists for years, but nobody came to us asking for our opinion. Two days ago, osufrlive, which is not even an official osu entity, but a community-driven initiative, pinged us, saying that they'd like to do the next tournaments on Lazer, and Lazer staff is pressing for feedback because the scoring may gonna be locked in two weeks?!

So my reaction was:

Scoring must not be locked before every player migrated. Whatever happens, the majority of feedbacks will naturally come when the players are forced into Lazer.

Lack of visibility and understanding

At the time, I thought Lazer would be an inevitable update of Stable. Then I was told it would be a separate game. I was going to ask a ton of of questions, but I just FINALLY found a document that answers most of them: https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/en/Help_centre/Upgrading_to_lazer which states:

The eventual goal is that this version will be released as an update which will completely supersede the existing stable version of the game

This kind of info should really be more visible. Because it's in the wiki, I first thought it was a migration guide (like to migrate a skin), but the FAQ is nice.

It's a good thing that we have regular updates on social media, but the information is split between many youtube videos, tweet or tweet responses, github posts (which is not end-user friendly), the wiki, etc.
I think Lazer would benefit from so much visibility and clarity by having a unique source of truth like a visible, well referenced one-pager with the essential information and links.

Lack of player engagement

You should know better than me - you have the stats and I don't - but I do believe there's not enough players to doing feedback to justify locking a scoring system.

In the mania community, Lazer is still mocked because "it's been 84 years" since the announcement and "it will never come out".
In people's mind, Lazer is nowhere close to replace Stable. The question is not "when will it be released?", but "when will it replace stable?". Or, if players are not encouraged into Lazer: "when will it be the right time to switch?"

The absence of a proper mania skin editor and/or documentation is an obstacle to get a Stable player to try the game. It looks like modifying a note (equivalent of circle) is impossible. Once imported into Lazer, my notes are scaled differently (shall I open an issue?).
Some players who tried Lazer and had a bad experience don't want to give the game another shot.

If the scoring system is locked and turns out to be disliked by the majority, this will be a new obstacle for engagement.

The lack of visibility mentioned before is part of the problem. Of course, I do believe the opinion is getting better thanks the team stepping up the communication with monthly dev updates.

Impact on the feedback process

I guess we all agree that it's wrong to lock a game mode without getting proper feedback first. But what do the Lazer team really want?

If you aim to satisfy players, why not taking some time now or in the future to make surveys about the state of the game? I mean, it has worked before (link).

Part of the french community is lucky to have been warned through osufrlive. But what about other communities and players who are not part of one? They deserve access to the information as well. I know a news was published for the occasion, but I think it deserves better visibility.
Why not having a flashy announcement on the osu stable menu, telling everyone the game's future is at stake?

Maybe it is your way to filter out low quality feedback by having only the most involved people to talk?
But right now, it feels like I could gather my friends and my own community to mass upvote a change, independently from the majority's opinion. While I could use this power to upvote Adri's post I agree with, I don't think this is how things must be done.

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In conclusion, I believe:

• Lazer lacks visibility and understanding from the community. Most players don't know what's at stake. Communication should be more aggressive imho.
• Lazer team should target stable players directly when reaching for feedback, and not only the few curious trying the game.
• Core changes should remain possible as long as the Lazer player base is not significant.

I am willing to help with anything involved in retrieving feedbacks from the community. But like many from the western world, I'm busy with end of the year celebrations.

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Remaining questions I have to the Lazer team:

• If Stable is maintained until the last player stops, I'm confident it will last forever. I'm afraid a part of the player base is going to split. What's the team vision on this?
• How do you expect players to move to Lazer? Anything planned?
• In any case, won't players eventually be forced into Lazer? I guess the time will come when world cups will be on Lazer.

Thanks for reading, thanks for taking care of the game, and thanks for caring so much about our opinion. I hope this is helpful.

[trustytrojan]

100% agree, the team needs to use survey metrics, and secure the results by taking only one submission per survey per account.

[LevFlavien]

FYI In reaction to this post, Zyf told me the team was already reconsidering the idea of locking the gameplay/scoring systems, which is good news to me

[Zyfarok]

AFAIK they will do leader-board resets after the release if something needs to be changed. The earlier they are aware of what needs to be changed the better though.

[Adrriii]

Hopefully, scorev2 can be kept as-is with the upcoming SS Perfect/Great. The only thing I can imagine getting in the way is infra, but I doubt so.

[peppy]

I feel like a lot has been lost in misunderstandings or misinterpreting things. I explicitly mentioned in the video (and nothing has changed) that this WHOLE PUSH for pp is to get feedback, which you touch on (we haven't had enough to date and we WON'T get any unless people get their pp so they can play and give the feedback in the first place).

I also mention in the video and changelog that our goal is to lock things in as good as possible before the end of the year so people can play with pp and be in a good place to give feedback. I explicitly mention that changes may occur beyond the new year. I don't know how to be more clear.

[felipemarins]

I will only comment about the criteria for S grade. There was a discussion about this on osu! development discord and a suggestion that I liked was to turn the grade system into a score based system. Some people thought that it could be confusing when applying mods, but the way I imagine it is the following:

• Implement a statistic for the maximum achievable score (disregarding the bonus portion)
• Show a percentage of the score achieved in relation to the maximum achievable on the results screen
• Make the grade system based on this percentage

The maximum achievable score would be dependent on the mod multiplier, so a 90% nm score would not be the same as a 90% hd score. I think it could work since lazer uses the standardized score display as the default and the grade wheel that shows at the results screen would feel better.

I don't know what the cutoffs for each grade would be, but I think that between 70% and 75% would be a good place for S (if you look at the score table, it would be around the score that you achieve with 95% acc and 1 miss at the middle).

A concern that I have is that the fact that the bonus portion could make your score look like it's inside the range for a grade when it isn't can still be confusing to some players (even with the new percentage implemented). But even so, I don't think that coming back with the FC requirement would be a good thing as you would have a 900k score with only 1 miss at the same grade as a 400k score with many misses (that would be almost the opposite problem that the current system have).

In relation to the issue with FC scores not being immediately recognized, I like a suggestion that was commented in this discussion about having the score card be gold when the score is a FC (if it were to be implemented in the new score card design, it could be a gold gradient above the profile banner or some kind of outline). Or you could have just the combo count be green when it's a FC as it is already implied at the score card redesign. I think this could be enough to resolve the issue.

Lastly, I think it would be good if this grade system (or something similar) could be tested in some release before possibly locking up on the stable criteria.

[Maxtulini]

Some things could be already solved but at the moment I'm typing this I haven't really seen all comments and I don't have much time to read every single one of them. Sorry about that but hope someone finds this comment useful anyway.

Hello! I'm a top osu!mania 4k player and I want to say some things regarding the future of osu!lazer before the next update that covers pp stuff. In this comment I'll mostly talk about mods in lazer, do some comparisons with standard client mods (mania related) and a couple of gameplay feedback.

Score Multiplier

There are some mods that affect the score multiplier. Before last update we could uprate the multiplier above 1.0x with mods like DT/NC but now uprate is not a thing anymore. This is very good for the mania scene since it's the only gamemode that doesn't necesarily need a score affected by a uprate, otherwise it could literally change mania forever. In this case I want to mention all mods that DO affect score in lazer/standard client:

• Easy (0.5x)
• No Fail (0.5x)
• Half Time/Daycore (0.1-0.5x)
• Difficulty Adjust (0.5x)
• Constant Speed (0.9x)
• Hold Off (0.9x)
• Wind Up (0.5x)
• Wind Down (0.5x)
• Adaptative Speed (0.5x)

The thing is I DON'T think some mods deserve their downrate on the score based on my plays on some maps. For example, mods like Wind Up/Down, Adaptative Speed, and No Fail shouldn't give less score since those are "for fun" mods and NF doesn't make any map "easier" to play in the first place (other than playing it 'till the end with no healthbar involved). I feel that NF should be like the current NF+SV2 on standard client in lazer with 1.0x score multiplier.
On the other hand, some mods DO need more downrate such as Constant Speed and Hold Off. Both mods make any map way easier to play and I personally feel that both mods are meant to give at most 0.5x score, otherwise the sv and ln maps will kinda be in the negative way if both will give pp in the future.

Mod Preferences/Personal Mod Settings

It's very useful to do a fast mod selection like how we have in standard client (with just one key press to enable one mod) and I like this new update with it in lazer. But I find it very unfriendly with the User Experience to select multiple mods individually and with this new feature it makes it even worse to do multiple mod selection. That's where the personal mod setting come in to just do a "one click" to enable multiple mods. Is the new type-enter feature a current thing on plan to do for the personal mod settings like we already have for individual mod selection?

I also want to ask if there is a way to deselect all mods with one key press instead of the "deselect mod" button interactable with the mouse? It's very annoying to manually press the deselect all mods button or do it one by one manually when the main purpose of this new mod selection update is to select/deselect mods in a faster pace.

Future Of Mods

I, as a player, tend to flex my scores with my friends using certain mods to make a funny or tryhard challenge. One way of doing that is with the leaderboard on each ranked/loved map or another way could be a screenshot or replay file of the play itself. Standard client has little to offer with that (aside of the cough cough private servers cough cough) but I think lazer can do much better in that department. Maybe it's not a viable thing to implement but uploading plays in the leaderboard could be a thing regardless of the mod usage. Currently mods like Hard Rock, Random, and Co-Op are not visible in leaderboards when lazer leaderboards show pretty much all mods aside from auto and cinema. This may be offtopic but I shall ask to the team development: will all mods be visible in leaderboards in the future like how we currently have on the lazer website? If yes, is there like a plan to say which mods will give pp and which will not (DT/HT/EZ being the exceptions)?

This may be covered already on another comment before mine but PF mod is currently impossible to play (unless you are very skilled at getting 1M scores) on lazer, since in mania it's a real challenge to surpass the 1M score barrier.

Gameplay On Lazer

This could be a personal thing I have dealt with but maybe some players could find this helpful if this is treated and maybe solved in case it's all about bugs.

I sometimes feel like lazer client runs way smoother than standard client, but one random day this changes to the opposite way, standard client being way better in performance than lazer. I don't really know if it has to do with the multiple updates the team were doing to lazer but maybe there were some default settings changed with each update. I use RTX 2070 with Max-Q Design (very uncommon NVIDIA graphics card I guess) and sometimes I feel lazer client so stutter in a similar way as standard client with the very common "lagspikes". I recently felt that there were a lot of framedrops during play no matter what map I'm playing. Again, maybe it's a personal thing but there could be more players with that issue as well.

Another thing I don't find familiar is the timing lines. In standard client it's disabled depending on the skin with the "skin.ini" file but in lazer it's always enabled no matter what skin I use. I personally dislike having to see the timing lines while I'm playing any map, especially the sv maps where the timing lines displayed in screen get to a point where I don't know what's happening even if I played the same sv map a ton of times. I suggest to make a setting that enables/disables those lines for individual skins or for the overall settings if it's not a thing right now in lazer.

Last thing is that sv maps play VERY DIFFERENT in standard client and lazer client. Perfect example is Aleph-0 loved map, some sv elements work very different with the same values used in standard client (you can do a comparison with auto on both clients with the provided map). So then I ask: is there a plan to make sv maps work the same in both clients to avoid a "re-learn" component, or it will rely on lazer sv for future ranked/loved maps or future MWC iterations?

(Offtopic) Personal Experience/Overall Feedback

I do have to say that my experience with lazer is far beyond from what I was really expecting it to be. Yeah I only played osu! for at least 2 years and I found more familiar using standard client than lazer client. Other than that, lazer feels way more friendly to use and I sure hope to see more things being added in the future and maybe I could do my transition to lazer one day :D

At first, lazer felt very complex to use because I got used to simple UI/UX on most games I played and made (Game Dev myself hehe) but once I recognized some settings and stuff from standard client they felt very cool and fancy. I know this is so offtopic to the main thing but I wanted to let it out before anything happens with the game, but I suggest the team development to involve the osu community more into lazer than standard client for things like this, not only doing Github posts and comments for feedback or with one or two YT videos for very important stuff. It's definitely possible to add in-game surveys to let people know about something you want to know from the community instead of the website.

That's about it, thank you for reading this! :D Hope you have an amazing day and also hope you get a ton of presents in Christmas/New Year!!!!!!

smile face spam

[Adrriii]

Very complete and good feedback imo ! So take my upvote, just one thing:

PF mod is currently impossible to play

This has just been fixed today to accept Perfect/Great, and SS is also on its way to be with Perfect/Great 👍

[CraDow]

"Before last update we could uprate the multiplier above 1.0x with mods like DT/NC but now uprate is not a thing anymore."

Honestly removing the score multiplier from dt was a mistake from my perspective... but since there are so many people disliking the idea of rewarding players that have greater physicality in the shape of the maps' global leaderboard I don't think it this is that important. It is just a thing that never made sense to me in stable (I'm not even such a strong player so I wouldn't really benefit from the score multiplier on dt).

[Adrriii]

@CraDow the side effect of adding a DT/NC score multiplier, is to encourage player using the maximum rate possible for EVERY map. Using rates is good and fun when tryharding some maps, for pp and self-improvement, however imo this shouldn't be forced to players all the time. Also, on top of that, the rate multiplicator used to reach 1.2 for the x2.0 rate. Anyone who has played Quaver in a casual way on regular maps, knows how it feels to have a leaderboard filled with 2.0 scores.

Compare with osu!standard : people have to use HDDTHR even FL sometimes, in order to have a spot in the leaderboard, even though they may not like playing this way. In mania we have the opportunity to have a leaderboard representing the scores on a map as it is, as it was mapped in 1.0 rate. What makes a lot more sense, is having a separate leaderboard for each rate mode ; Like we have on Loved maps, this way everyone is represented and all scores are between 0-1M so it's easy to compare the scores. Having the default leaderboard for the 1.0 rate seems logical.

Also I'll add that physicality is very, very represented currently with pp, global ranking, etc, and with free rate from 1.0 to 2.0 being ranked it will get even more representation. I understand that some people only care about physicality but please, leave some stuff for the rest of us 😓

These are not the only arguments in favor of keeping 1.0 (can't stress enough the score 0-1M range), and from what I've seen on various discords there's a big majority of people in favor of keeping 1.0 as well

[CraDow]

I was simply stating my own opinion.
Or my own "feedback"
I'm aware of what you wrote. Things aren't black or white regarding preferences. There are people that believe that score should reward harder plays, other people believe that hitting the notes on the original bpm as accurate as possible is more important.
I'm part of the group that defends that by design people that are able to hit higher bpm of the same pattern should be rewarded on map leaderboards also. This may sound as complete nonsense to some but it makes all sense to me.
Anyways this is my last reply to try to push this idea. I don't want to make this thread a star wars intro.

[Adrriii]

I know, I'm just stating what side-effects and other arguments that you may not have considered, just in case

[crumpledmint]

Is it currently possible to turn off visual effect of a missed sliderend? If not, that would be nice to add because it really messes up with reading a map since that's not how stable behaves and sliderend miss doesn't break combo

[Wrongwayscout]

Sliderend miss looks very good on argon, would hope for the element to be skinnable, and/or have a better implementation in legacy skins. I know in the skin I use it would look nice if it were monochrome, but it's hard to figure out something that would work across all skins. Perhaps it could just use the argon sliderend miss for all legacy skins? The way it is now works really well for slidertick misses since those break combo and don't occur as often. But on some types of maps sliderends are dropped really frequently which can get very distracting.

Quick retrying via a key combination (I use ctrl+r like stable) behaves a little differently, you need to press the modifier first, whereas in stable it works even if you press r, then ctrl.

[Flamiii]

Slider tick and slider end misses will be skinnable in the next release (#26117) by using [email protected] and [email protected] respectively.

[Infinitstart]

I've been enjoying a bit of lazer. Great job.

Major points

1. In terms of scoring, I don't have anything bad to say tbh. I'm cool with both ScoreV2 and "ScoreV3". This level of slider head leniency is pretty nice too but please do give back the tail judgement. :(
2. Sadly, I like them without capping but with increases of 100s instead, as you mentioned somewhere in the previous comments.
3. For the HP drain, I think it's just a bit too lenient.
4. Minor but I feel like all modded S ranks should be "silver S" instead of only for HD, as a sign of modulation and pushing this further would be that each mod has its own gradient...? idk.
5. (^1. "... please do gib bak da tail judgement") I really like those tail judgements.

Minor points

• Small skinnable additions
  • Flipping the direction inside the health tube. (The ArgonHealthDisplays here are both mirrored horizontally. But this also applies if people somehow put the health on the other side.)
    
  • I wanna get rid of the numbers.
    
  • The ability to decrease the opacity of the slider tails so the stacked circles are more readable.

[hiyjinx]

new feedback i noticed is playing a map like rrtyui's white cube the patterns at 18:800 and 25:000 feel way harder to hit on lazer compared to slandered