Is this repo dead? #230
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It looks like Microsoft has abandoned or forgotten the developers |
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ping @harinikmsft |
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I have the same question. |
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Sometime this repo lookslike this one : https://github.com/benaadams/System.Ben/issues It feels sad to me to say that because i place so much hope on it at the start. |
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The problem with xaml-standard is that it is quite confusing topic. First of all, what exactly needs to be standardised? Most common "issue" on this project is suggesting a control that should come with base XAML. Or converters. Or XAML featurs like However, XAML is not a set of controls, XAML is a dialect. And it consists of things like controls, properties, nested controls, nested properties, attached properties, behaviours, converters, markup extensions and such. Instead of focusing on controls, focus on the XAML as a platform. One thing XAML clearly lacks is proper lifecycle. Another is extensibility. If you look at HTML/CSS/JS combo, that world has a lot of original technologies that are built on powerful underlying platform. Things like SASS/LESS/SPAs are invented there, not here. Where is our incremental DOM? Or shadow DOM? Virtual one? What about HAML? Pug? Another syntax for writing terser UIs instead of writing After all, every XAML file begins with two My love for XAML fades as I turned to React which is a superior implementation of what XAML was supposed to be: declarative markup. Consider the following: XAML feels heavy and binding, once super cool, feels cryptic compared to React's elegance. IMHO React is XAML/MVVM done right. Let's focus on inventing on top of a powerful and stable platform instead of talking about |
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At the end of the DotNetRocks #1527 episode, @coolcsh mentioned more info will come at Build 2018. Cross fingers! |
I noticed that part of the episode too. The optimist in me is running wild with possibilities. Mainly because he didn't just come out and say "the standard is still being developed". If it's worth an announcement at build there must be more to it than just an iteration on the standard. Maybe they've created a Microsoft supported front end with platform specific back ends like Avalonia and Eto.Forms. But then the pessimist in me says that that it'll just be kind of a dud of an announcement. Then the realist in me says that maybe they'll just announce v1.0 of the spec. In a perfect world I just want something with the portability of Java Swing apps but all the great bonuses of WPF (hardware acceleration, great composability, XAML, etc.). Not sure how useful this would be for people in .NET production environments but for hobby projects I always liked being able to create a fast UI with Swing. |
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Still wanting to see this complete. Patiently waiting but anxious just as much. Any update on the progress? |
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Probably won't hear any news till Build I guess? Still optimistic on this despite the silence 😃 Hopes for the best. |
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😉 |
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Why look, a Xaml Standard sighting... for all the wrong reasons:
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😶 |
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With this @microsoft reorganization, with @Azure Cloud First, AI first and Quantum, I think that they will allow XAML to go where previous politics did not alow, ie. the Web. and cross-platform. Silverlight 6, with Universal XAML C# F# support. I fear we dump XAML and go a javascript, html and react like way, or some json way, or even a ELM F# way. This will a big retrocess, in my opinion. The engineers should go and fix all these issues in upcoming Universal XAML. and also adopt reactiveness and immutability on it. I think that the problem is that Microsoft hold XAML too much on the desktop for many years. But I think they will change this soon. XAML is very important. It is a clean way to instantiate objects. XAML is a solution, not a problem. XAML to the Azure Cloud! |
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Amen to everything he said above!! |
Indeed, @jackbond sitting right below the vote that you mentioned earlier:
This suspicion is 100% aligned the output/quality/talent out of the UWP group for the past few years, and has also been my determination based on conversations/phone calls that I have had with their (remaining) staff. These phone calls and discussions have led to nowhere, of course. The self-inflicted conundrum that they are battling is that they had a talent drain to Google and elsewhere, which only leads to less resources, which only leads to less production, which only leads to less value, which only leads to less resources... The bigger question to me is what has happened due to the recent restructuring/reorganization. I haven't seen/read/heard anything in regards to this, but my expectations are not very high. The .NET/Core team continues to be where the talent (and passion) in MSFT is at these days. |
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@jackbond WPF + .NET Core open source is the best of the worlds |
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@jackbond I have noticed that they do have trigger words there for posts. Did your page refresh/load without a message? I have had that happen a few times and it had to do with certain words I was using. I've had this happen on Visual Studio's blog but not .NET's. I saw that you had your post edited once by Immo on .NET's blog, but I do not think you've been banhammered. FWIW you are not the only one that has experienced this lately. If you do a search in the Ubiquitous Vote about 6 comments down there's mention by Oliver that he had problems, too. I am pretty sure it has to do with certain words and not you personally. If so, that should definitely get rectified. UWP is really the only group that I have seen censoring in the Windows ecosystem as they really don't know what they are doing there... as this repo and many many other examples clearly illustrate. 😉 |
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@mike-eee @jackbond : Perhaps just not swear so damn much? |
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In my case there were no swear words, @dotMorten. But there were words that I saw that could be seen as spam. |
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But in case you're wondering, this is what one of the big stakeholders think of XAML in Xamarin: https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/972525236301238272 If he considers it "Anchoring" in that negative connotation, well it's going to be a tough sell getting the Xamarin team on board. And without Xamarin on board, yes this standard would be completely and utterly dead. |
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@dotMorten I thought Xamarin was a part of this whole initiative from the start? The XF team was brought in to lead this? Jason Smith was in charge of this repo at one point, for example. Sounds like there might indeed be an announcement at //build. XAML STANDARD 2.0: THIS TIME WE MEAN IT. |
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@Mike-EEE I'm sure Jason will have a hard time pushing this, if his boss says no :-) |
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Heh... granted @dotMorten buuuuuut there's this whole huge announcement thing at last year's //build. A huge deal was made of it! We went through all the hassle of creating issues! And now it seems like that huge deal and effort was ... a mistake? An oversight? Trust is a bit of an issue here. Why should we trust any additional information and announcements out of //build now? The whole Silverlight thing doesn't help, either. Very big problem. |
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LOL. If only I had a penny each time someone announced plans that never materialized... Put it another way: This repo isn't (officially at least) dead, and we're all still "fighting the good fight". It's just that I find the lack of progress and statements as what I linked to, very discouraging. The Xamarin team did a small effort to put something out there in November last year, and we all tore it apart as a horrible approach, and since then, we haven't seen any effort. |
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Fair enough... I guess my first question is why are these discussions happening over in Twitter and not here in the official repo? This is the first I have heard of this. Twitter is a terrible, inhumane place so I steer clear of it as much as I can. Besides, I have better things to do like troll developers on GitHub and in MSDN blog comments 😆 |
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@jackbond Let's stop the discussion here and wait for build. It's not that far away, and then we'll know more. I'll be there and "hunt down" Harini, Miguel, Jason other engineers involved and try and get the scoop what is going on. |
Watch out @jackbond ... that's exactly how I felt for Mix '11. And pretty much every conference/announcement since then, for that matter. 😉 So now we have to see how they top making a supreme announcement to "fix" something, actually put forth the realized effort to create and establish the open source repository and subsequent community to "support" this effort, and then pull said support altogether about 6 months in after its inception.
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Thanks guys for your great discussion. I feel every word here.
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I just had the funniest thought @weitzhandler that MSFT could very well indeed announce a move to WPF .NET Core for //build2018, hence all the hushhush on here all of the sudden. Wouldn't that be awesome. Although I would feel like the biggest chump in the world for hassling them on here for it, it would be worth it. 😆 |
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instead of reposting, could suggest they just post in one place and reference what issue numbers they consider related (and github will add ref links I think automatically at both places) |
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@birbilis dotnet/maui#34 (comment)
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btw, is WinUI related to XAML Standard? WinUI is Microsoft’s most advanced user interface technology for building Windows apps. There are two versions of WinUI in active development: WinUI 2 and WinUI 3. WinUI 2 is a library of Fluent-based UI controls & styles for UWP XAML apps; it was first shipped in Oct 2018 and its latest release is v2.4 which came out recently on May 8th. WinUI 3 is a currently-in-development, dramatic expansion of this library into a full-fledged, end-to-end, standalone UI framework. This UI framework continues the tradition of WinUI and UWP XAML, providing the very latest graphical capabilities and Fluent Design styling that embraces today’s modern devices, hardware, and inputs. Technically, WinUI 3 decouples the XAML, Composition, and Input layers of Windows 10, and ships them independently via NuGet for any app targeting Windows 10 1803 and above. It can be used in both C++ and .NET-based apps. WinUI 3 Preview 1 is the first pre-release of WinUI 3 that can be used in both UWP and Desktop apps, allowing every developer a chance to tap into the very latest UI technologies from Microsoft for building Windows apps https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2020/05/19/introducing-winui-3-preview-1/ |
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Ugh, here we go again @Mike-E-wins. For years you've been hell bent on rubbishing everything MS does. I get it, you've been burnt, but for the love of god........LET IT GO! Find a hobby, something, anything! Post Silverlight getting chopped I agreed with some of what you said, but now, man, it's time to realize that rubbishing things constantly doesn't help. Give it a rest, move on. |
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I dunno @JimFromAus, I have been pretty quick to praise Blazor and ASP.NET Core. Those projects/groups seem to be running at a very high level and utilizing their talents appropriately. I appreciate your weird obsession with me, but maybe you're too focused on the negative? *shrug* |
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@Mike-E-wins The name is "Aus" not "Anus" lol |
OOPS... sorry about that! I did a peek and thought it was for sure a burner account of sorts. No activity except to pounce on me? Guess I was seeing ghosts. 😉😇 Anyways, corrected. 👍 |
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Ha, no that's pretty funny @Mike-E-wins, well played. I wasn't trying to be a tool about things, but if we can't find something positive, can we at least leave the teams doing their best to go for it and not shoot them down constantly? All it does is make anyone new to development go 'Yuck, I'd never touch that' when they read the negative posts. BTW, not many posts is just a while offline occupied with other things. There is a post in this from 2018 from me, how long this has gone on. Sadly. |
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In a way, we're doing the newbs a service, @JamieBurm (I forced an autocomplete this time 😁). The newbs should have some guidance on where the grief is occurring in the ecosystem. We're saving them time, energy, and ultimately money. It's very much a fool-me-twice-shame-on-me type scenario we're playing by these days, especially with the Windows Group, and now with the Xamarin Forms team. Xamarin Forms was the reason that Xaml Standard got nixed, after all. And I just realized that their lead abandoned the project and isn't even working for it anymore! If their lead isn't excited enough to stay on the project -- and, you know, lead -- why should we be excited enough to adopt it? Sort of mind-blowing that I didn't know that this happened until now... it happened 18 months ago. :| Anyways, that should show how checked out I am from XF/Xaml/Windows these days. As I said, I am fully in Blazor now, and while it's not as pretty as Xaml, it's glorious. :) BTW, I am very (VERY) mindful of being over-critical in my posts. So much so that I have even suggested creating a rewards/recognition/kudos system for MSFT Heroes: So, please know that I also do give praises along with criticism where it's deserved, and try to keep a healthy balance between the two. ✌ |
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@Mike-E-wins You should post this on dotnet/maui#43. |
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Roger that, and am glad that you're digging Blazor. But reading "The newbs should have some guidance on where the grief is occurring in the ecosystem. We're saving them time, energy, and ultimately money. It's very much a fool-me-twice-shame-on-me type scenario we're playing by these days, especially with the Windows Group, and now with the Xamarin Forms team." I get that, but for someone young they'll read this (and many other posts) and take it pretty literally. It reads as 'stay away!' You're directly whacking the windows and Xamarin guys, and whacking them hard. Anyone new to the industry will shy away reading these posts, the negativity on these forum's is what I see killing things. They're being given guidance, but it's a path straight out of the MS ecosystem. Even from a quick scroll upwards on this pretty much dead end post: #230 (comment) Negative messaging doesn't help newcomers, it never will. It may influence change in the platforms, but from experience it's an uphill battle. |
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@JimFromAus And the only places where you cannot hear criticism at all are authoritarian regimes, i.e. North Korea and China. By voicing our criticism, newcomers can make an informed decision on whether to adopt Microsoft technology or use better alternatives instead. We are helping others save costs and doing them a favour. |
LOL I am holding them accountable! There seems to be a serious disconnect here of cause-and-effect. Are you then stating that it's OK for a corporate entity to publicly announce (brag) about a new initiative, only to quietly (or try to) stifle it a year later as if nothing ever happened? Should we simply forget about Build 2018 and any subsequent announcements made after, especially when they have proven they cannot deliver? And ESPECIALLY since this seems to be a common, running theme that has been proven time and time again? Are we to notice but not acknowledge the incongruencies/inefficiencies of these business units? Sorry, that is not good business practice or sense to me. Again, you do not see me complaining about the ASPNETCore Teams, or really anything .NET Core which has been exemplary and doing their job well -- not just from a technical perspective but from a social/customer engagement perspective as well. They are owning it on all fronts! Bottom line: there is a reason why you do not lie to your customers. Trust is a very important quality to have when you conduct business, and I am doing my part to keep people accountable, in my own way. You might have a problem with my style but IMO that reflects more on you than me. I have never been abusive or personal in any of my criticism and that is always by design. My criticism has always been generalized and phrased in a way that targets the organization and not specific people. And trust me if I wasn't here to say anything about it, someone else would. Maybe you're just telling me to be less efficient about it. Which... I'll think about it? 😆 |
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I do like that @Mike-E-wins, well played. Unless you're taking the piss with the last sentence. Then that's just rude. But my gripe here is that there's lots of people trying to do the right thing, they're all grafting away doing the best they can. I've had direct contact with some of the MS (mostly Xamarin) guys and they're heart felt. They're working their buts off, as we all do. But as one of them once told me "a bit more sugar with the vinegar would be nice now and then". They get mostly vinegar. I get you're trying to hold them to account, and maybe it's just the posts I've seen you put up that riled me up at the start. But criticism is criticism and someone, somewhere feels that. They're responsible for delivering what someone then bags out. It might have been their choice, in that case they own it. But more often than not they're just carrying out orders. That's where the hammering of these teams gets bit bit borderline. They're not trying to make stupid decisions or be deceitful. But we're attacking them directly at the lower levels, and that just might not be the right place to deliver the gut punches. I know you (and other guys here giving me stick) are active all over the place and that's a good thing overall. But is there a better way we can do this without attacking and trying to bash and smash MS into submission via posts like this? Because quite frankly, I just don't see it making any difference. The interactions I've have have been out of positive gestures and at times phone conversations to actually explain the view point so you get an 'Oh yer, I get it now' moment. Otherwise, it's just attacks and people going "I'm doing all I can, what else do you want me to do?". Eventually they burn out and move on and unfortunately nobody wins. |
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All fair points @JimFromAus. From my perspective, it's not about me. "Don't shoot the messenger" as they say. As a bottom line, I am amazed that I am the one that riles you up when it is the corporation here that is the one that is ultimately sticking it to you. In the end, MSFT is proving they can do it "the right way" with .NETCore groups while the other groups are clearly not integrating their practices, philosophies, and processes -- and it shows. It shows and I am making sure they know. :) BTW, there are others that are doing the same as me, you just have to stop focusing on me so much to see. 😅 |
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Here you go @JimFromAus: https://twitter.com/asp_net/status/1265604518630301698 If I was swearing up a storm and calling people names such as this, then IMO you would have a stronger argument. But find me some posts where I do that and we can have that discussion. :) Compared to the above I am proud of my brand, as it were. |
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OK, while I might not agree on approach I do see where you're coming from and understand the "Don't shoot the messenger" analogy. Best of luck. |
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Any wagers on if Flutter will achieve the Xaml Standard before the Xaml Standard achieves the Xaml Standard? |
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Back from 2019 |
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DOH @birbilis that's why I do this to see who's paying attention. 😆 @weitzhandler sent this to me yesterday and I thought the above was the same when I saw it in my timeline, reminding me to post it, derp. |
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I'm not saying there's a pattern here, but there's a pattern here. 😁 https://mspoweruser.com/report-microsoft-cancels-windows-10x-will-focus-on-windows-10-alone/ FWIW, I am working on my own (Blazor) startup/app and you'll soon get the chance to troll me into oblivion. trololololol. |
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Only a phrase from some shady news site saying
I'll wait MS official info before believing in this. Even if I didn't understand the need of Windows X to begin with since Windows10 already is on tablet and most of the difference I read can to me be bring to Windows10. |
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a single Windows target is needed with layered APIs so that some are portable |
https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-officially-acknowledges-windows-10x-isnt-happening 😢 |
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that's very good news, can't have multiple incompatible Windows again |
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I didn't follow a lot WindowsX. But from what i understand it was just windows with some part remove like windows lite or nano. |
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The problem with Windows-X was that it had been mentioned that apps targetting it wouldn't be able to run on other Windows versions. That sounded highly problematic to me. Apps should be adaptable to device form factors and try to make best use of what's available to them. Some apps might choose to limit their target to specific device specs/functionality, but other than that, don't see why one would have a separate OS target just for a specific set of device functionality (like side-by-side / foldable touch screens if that was the target for Windows-X indeed) |
and others
All in the title.
Since May 2017 no real news.
....
What MS thinks about it?
What the community thinks?
What "other implementation guys" like Avalon thinks?
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