Change gastronomy objects to orange color #3360
Conversation
Adamant36
changed the title
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@Adamant36 As this is quite important change and we need to know how would it look on different landcovers, please add more examples (icon-rare/ icon-dense areas, grass area, forest area) |
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The orange is 'screaming' to me loudly, like a warning colour. The blue and the purple icons struggle to compete, the remaining amenity-brown ones become harder to notice. |
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Not too keen on this colour, looks a bit light. Would like to see a few other shades tested before merging. |
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@polarbearing Do you have another, none 'screaming' shade to try? If so, I'm willing to test it. |
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As I am not convinced that we need that new colour in the first place, I'd be biased to propose one. |
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If that is too light, than maybe something closer to brown. It might be something like my initial idea, maybe it could be tweaked to look better: #3329 (comment). I'm still hesitating, but it makes sense to render such broad category in a different way rather than use brown everywhere. |
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Same Color. It could be a tad darker maybe. Although it looks good with lighter stuff like the leisure green area or in the water park. |
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@polarbearing So your willing to taint other people's opinions of the color by saying it "screams like a warning colour," but then it would somehow be bias of you to propose an alternative? Right.... |
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It's quite ok, but I would like to see a little bit darker/ less bright version to compare. Especially in example place from picture no. 1, where orange icons look like competing with orange highways. |
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Slightly darker #B75B00 I'm slightly leaning toward A35100. I can do tests of more areas on these or the original if needed. I think the original competed with orange highways a tad. Maybe these ones wouldn't. |
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I like #B75B00 more, since this is easier to recognize both from brown (amenities) and roads. #A35100 is too close to brown, even in a direct proximity. |
@Adamant36 - could you please stop getting personal? Please read here. I expressed my own, personal opinion, that I felt the visualisation was unbalanced. I did not taint anybody or anything. I am not obliged to make proposals for something I am not convinced that it is needed. |
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@polarbearing I don't see how I was being critical. I was just pointing that you were already introducing bias by commenting in the first place and since that was the case, it would have been cool if you helped me come up with a better color on top of it. Since I'm obviously no expert at this. It had everything to do with brainstorming a better color and nothing to do with you. The Last time I checked the rules say "don't merely decry the current state of affairs; offer—or at least solicit—suggestions as to how things may be improved." So it wasn't personal and I would of asked anyone for an improvement if they had of just been critical without proposing one. If I misinterpreted that rule though and I should keep my mouth shout and let you criticize things without asking you if you have a better suggestion, my bad. You could of followed the whole "Interpret the arguments of others in good faith" thing and just let it go. Since we are on the subject though, you do seem to have a tendency to just decry the current state of affairs with out suggesting how they can be improved. Not just in this PR. You did the same thing in the Wiki and my change set comments. You have been doing it for a while and long before we interacted here. I'm not going to be 100% pleasant to you every time we communicate after the confrontational, none productive way you acted toward me in those places. So don't expect me to. As long as I'm not outright insulting or demeaning, I'm not obligated to act like we are best friends or something and saying you were already introducing bias by commenting isn't anything in the grand scheme of things. outside of that, from now on take what I say in good faith and as a way to get improvements. Even if its slightly backbiting. Because that's all it is. If your not willing to do that and prefer to just only be critical, I would prefer you follow the "don't decry" rule by skipping over my PRs in the first place. Otherwise, it just adds pointless noise. Like your nonconstructive comments on the Wiki did. Its worthless to comment on something just for the sake of commenting. I pass over PRs and issues I don't like all the time because I have nothing constructive to add too them. I'm sure you can do the same, especially if they are my PRs or issues. You had already made it clear in the original issue that you think the color shouldn't be changed and it was already decided by other people that it will probably will be. So I don't know what you expect by just repeating the same thing here that was already considered and disregarded there. |
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More tests of #B75B00. I think it looks good. It isn't to bright for the purple or anything and seems to go fine with the roads . |
Do you refer to everybody telling you (as Adamant1 ) not to set proposal pages to 'delete'? And you are still doing that.
I am not acting towards your person, though I comment your actions or ideas if I agree or disagree with them.
One was about the change in general, this is about a specific colour in context of others. |
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Despite my general hesitation, the #B75B00 appears more acceptable to me. When comparing colours, it would be a good idea to show the same area, so the comparison could be made in the identical context. |
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@Adamant36 @polarbearing I don't feel last comments between both of you are going to solve anything. I admit, it's hard to draw the line between personal attacks and just commenting someone's stuff. The golden rule I use when doing a moderator's job (for example on OSM forum) is to avoid any personal notes (all with "you" included) when the debate become heated and any evaluating words (like "bad" or "critical"). This way one can still express their own preferences and propositions ("I like/want/don't understand") and concentrate on merits until the heat is over. There's no way to assure mutual friendship in any group and this is not even a goal, even if it's nice if people appreciate each other and a friendly background makes things easier. However from my experience one of the worse factors escalating conflicts is if it's in public, because original opponents discussion tends to engage other people. So please remember about personal channels of communication in case you want to really talk about each other, not only the about mapping efforts. That's not to say that anyone breaks the rules or something like that. I just feel it's safe to act early, before it grows too big. You're both welcome here and I'm happy with your respective work, be it code or comments. |
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@polarbearing I rather not re-litigate it here, but I will say that asking for pages to be deleted was discussed with multiple moderators and other users before you and the few detractors came along. They all approved it and gave me the go ahead. Which you and the others ignored when I pointed it out and continued to harass me instead. I have no problem with you or anyone else telling me not to delete pages if they are pages that should be saved. I actually reverted some of my proposals when it was brought up in a civil manner. The aggressive, confrontational manor, you and the others went about it though was completely wrong. Especially the fact that you were unwilling to listen to other people who disagreed with you, not just me. Not to mention you guys reverting me, despite being in the minority and having multiple moderators saying not to do it. Your just extremely unwilling to acknowledge the part your approach plays in things. Its pretty ridiculous you quote me the rules and expect me to be 100% civil after the way you acted and the way you totally disregarded them. You shouldn't just badger people into getting your way. There was no reason I should of listened to you and the few loudest whiners over the moderators and other, more civil people who agreed with me that were in the majority. Outside of that, I have nothing else to say about it and I rather not discuss it anymore. As far as the other things goes, I was only commenting on your actions originally and not you personally either. You choose to make it personal though by saying I was making it that way when I wasn't. So once again, its your approach to this and nothing else I have issue with. I'm sure your a perfectly reasonable, pleasant person in real life and I have no beef with you other then the fact that you only seem to follow the rules its convent for you and you rather criticize people then contribute "suggestions as to how things may be improved." as the rules say. If you did that, and weren't cherry picking the rules for your own benefit I wouldn't have an issue with you at all. Also, I think its extremely dishonest to thumbs up your own comments because it looks to people passing by, who might not check what user left the thumbs up, that there is more support for your ideas then there is. Otherwise, why do it? |
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@kocio-pl I respect your opinion and agree with your comment. I will do my best to leave my personal issues with @polarbearing out of things from now on and I wont take jabs at him anymore. I agree that personal issues are better not discussed here. Unfortunately I didn't see your message until after I sent the one below yours though. So you'll have to excuse me on that one. That being said, maybe polarbearing could meet me half way by agreeing to be more constructive in his comments or to not make them, and he could also stop thumbs upping his own comments. As it makes it seems like he has more support for his ideas then he does. Its just a suggestion though and I will still try and be more civil either way. |
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No need to excuse, it's coincidence and I'm not angry at you nor decline the right for you both to feel angry. I treat it as natural thing, it just does not help designing. 😄 I also don't expect any of you to be civil, it's just pure pragmatic rule to not send any personal messages on public place - there just won't be an opportunity to be not civil or to have such impression. |
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@kocio-pl OK. What do you think about the color #B75B00. Should I do more testing on it or do you think its adequate? |
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How do you compare it to my original #c64803 proposition? They are quite close to each other, so maybe one could see some of their advantages and disadvantages. |
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As #CC6600 was too bright and similar to orange highways, #B75B00 is on the edge as close one to amenity-brown. If you are able to find some lighter, but not brighter colour, I would like to see test renderings. |
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@Tomasz-W What about any of these? I really want to believe it is somewhere around one of these. Maybe b77800 but a tiny bit darker. |
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Still quite hard to see, very difficult to read the text. The present brown works well, why are we fixing something that isn't broken? |
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Current order of preference: |
Because amenity-brown includes too many objects from very different categories at hte moment @Adamant36 Thanks for further testing! :) As I'm not a coder but designer, I was playing with potential colours in Photoshop. Can you prepare test renderings with #C77400 ? I like an effect with this colour because labels with it are well visible, and on the other hand it's not too dark to confuse with amenity-brown |
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Your welcome. Here's a test of your color. I couldn't test it in the same place as the others unfortunately, but I like it. I'll add more when I get a chance. |
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@Adamant36 @kocio-pl What do you think about nightclubs thing mentioned above? |
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I still think C77400 is too bright. On the organisational side, I wonder why the colour is separated from amenity, but the icons placed in a |
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@Tomasz-W, oh yeah. Night clubs might work also. What about amenity=bbq? Id like to just get it through at this point though and not have to deal with anymore merge conflicts etc if I can. Then we can add them later. @polarbearing There was some suggestions of more icon folders on the PR I did for that. I can add it to the list and transfer them to a gastronomy folder when I update the other ones if other people agree. Personally, I'm fine with doing it that way. I would like to get this through as is right now if its possible though. |
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@polarbearing Current folders order is organised by tag's keys, not colour's keys. There is no eg. "accomodation" folder but "tourism" as accomodation objects are placed in @Adamant36 Sorry, I don't understand your response. Can you tell which colour do you prefer for |
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@Tomasz-W, sorry. Gastronomy color for amenity=nightclub. Your probably right about BBQ. @polarbearing, we tried darker colors and it didn't really work out. This color seems to be inline with the tone of blue, purple, etc. So at least it matches those in brightness. If other colors can have a lighter tone, why exactly should this one be darker? I don't think we are going to find a "perfect" color, tone or otherwise. So this is more then good for me. |
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@Tomasz-W, any chance you would be willing to let the nightclub change go for now and have it added it to another PR later if need be so we can call this complete and get it merged finally? I really want it to be included in the next update. |
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sorry I don't get what it means "to let the nightclub change go". Go where, to yes or no? |
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@polarbearing, sorry. I know its in the code and I meant leave it as is. I think gastronomy color works for nightclubs and bbq isn't changed. I was just wanting a confirmation that everyone is good with that and it should be left as is, which you confirm. @kocio-pl never gave his opinion on nightclubs, but I'm sure he will eventually and will probably agree with us. So I guess its good to go then. Thanks for the constructive contribution. Plus the heads up about not drinking and driving ;) |
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@Adamant36 Yeah, I'm not sure about right colour for amenity=nightclub, but if it will change to gastronomy-orange, I wouldn't have some big problem with it. |
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I don't have strong opinion about nightclubs. It's a fuzzy kind of place for me. |
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sent from a phone
On 14. Sep 2018, at 23:03, kocio-pl ***@***.***> wrote:
I don't have strong opinion about nightclubs. It's a fuzzy kind of place for me.
yes, the name can probably refer to a wide variety of places, event venues, places with live music, for dancing. Usually I’d expect some sort of bar, lounge and dance floor as a minimum.
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There are some more specific problems related to this:
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Its kind of fuzzy for me to. It would be interesting to know how many night clubs don't contain bars. I know alcohol is outlawed in some Muslim countries, but maybe they wouldn't have night clubs either or they would qualify more as leisure places then anything. I'm sure There is also underage clubs that are alcohol free but might have soda/snack bars. I know (not from personal experience fyi) that in some places adult night clubs with strippers don't allow alcohol to be served there. Although, I think they still serve soda. So, who knows. I still think its fine to include them in the gastronomy category though. |
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Fine then. |
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@polarbearing Thanks for addressing that. I think this debate is over - colors are established and tested for icons and text, and categorization details are going to be discussed separately, as this problem is much wider. If anybody still wants to add something new, this is the last minute chance, as I'm going to merge it as soon as today probably. Here is rendering of a retail and touristic part of my city as an illustration of the proposed changes:
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sent from a phone
On 15. Sep 2018, at 05:24, kocio-pl ***@***.***> wrote:
If anybody still wants to add something new, this is the last minute chance, as I'm going to merge it as soon as today probably.
while I wasn’t a particular fan of the brown color, this lighter color (light brown or dirty orange) for me makes things worse.
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@dieterdreist - I wasn't a friend of this hue either, but my analysis in #3395 convinced me that we indeed need to split the colourspaces for icon themes. This is a start now from the technical side, fine tuning of different icon colours in relation to each other can follow. |
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sent from a phone
On 15. Sep 2018, at 14:59, polarbearing ***@***.***> wrote:
@dieterdreist - I wasn't a friend of this hue either, but my analysis in #3395 convinced me that we indeed need to split the colourspaces for icon themes.
there’s a point in diversifying feature colors, I am not criticizing the idea as such, just the actual color that was chosen.
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Thanks again for discussing this issue. This problem is not easy and it was a pleasure for me to see the teamwork for solving it! More than a month of work and ~10 people involved make me believe it's as good as it's possible at this moment. However I also hope that this change may motivate critics to come with even better idea. |
Great to see so many people involved. However I also think the current color is still too flashy. It would be great if someone still has suggestions to further finetune the color. |
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Was this colour contrast tested for colourblind accessibility actually? Especially with brownish colors it's challenging for red-green colourblind. |
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I believe it wasn't. We struggle with lack of colors for many months now, which makes it hard enough, and special cases are out of scope here - even color blindness includes different cases itself. However if you have some hint that could help with it, you are welcome to propose it. |
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This question comes up once in a while, and I do not think this style has the resources to cater for these needs. However, the big advantage of OSM is that maps can be rendered in any style, it should be possible to create a fork, which could even be automatically updated, which uses hues that are suitable for this particular need. |
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sent from a phone
On 22. Sep 2018, at 21:20, polarbearing ***@***.***> wrote:
This question comes up once in a while, and I do not think this style has the resources to cater for these needs
in the past it was definitely part of the considerations how contrast will be for the color blind.
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This time contrast was discussed, so the problem hasn't been neglected. I also remember color blind argument, but the outcome was that we can't follow it in general and specific solutions should be proposed if needed. Please look at #1945. |
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Please check the readability and contrast of the new color in special buildings.
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Since major buildings are very strong, they could be maybe made bit lighter, because everything is less visible there. |
This changes the color of gastronomy objects to orange using the hex value #cc6600 closes #3329
Test area https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.78790/-122.41233