pgplot 5.3.1

[karlglazebrook]

Are you aware that the final release of pgplot was in fact 5.3.1?

This was released in 2005, and even includes some new pgXX() routines.

It is not on the Caltech ftp site, there is a tarball floating around the web that I have. I used it for SciPDL for a few years as it included sys_darwin configs.

I have written to Tim Pearson to try and ascertain the status to get him to release it. It seems he has retired but I have good contacts at Caltech

[djerius]

I had no idea there was a later release. PGPLOT distribution has always been problematic because of the copyright, so if you can get that cleared up I'm more than happy to autotool it.

The HEASARC XSPEC package has a fairly hacked up version of PGPLOT (includes Postscript fonts). I always assumed they did that themselves, but maybe it's part of 5.3.1?

[karlglazebrook]

No PS fonts, here is the Change log I am trying to get in touch with Tim Pearson. It is still copyright Caltech and it would be painful to have that changed I imagine, but if he put it on the ftp site at least we would have an official place to pull it from Karl

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On 30 Aug 2021, at 9:15 am, djerius ***@***.***> wrote: I had no idea there was a later release. PGPLOT distribution has always been problematic because of the copyright, so if you can get that cleared up I'm more than happy to autotool it. The HEASARC XSPEC package has a fairly hacked up version of PGPLOT (includes Postscript fonts). I always assumed they did that themselves, but maybe it's part of 5.3.1? — You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGSBUOVHR4DMJACY6YTT7K5QNANCNFSM5C7VPXZQ>. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS <https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675> or Android <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub>.

[mohawk2]

PGPLOT does appear to be copyrighted by Caltech. Therefore, @karlglazebrook are you able to reach out to whomever at Caltech deals with their intellectual property to update the situation, hopefully opening the licence to something more permissive (3-clause BSD?) and/or officially distributing the latest, and/or updating the Tim Pearson site (https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/#copyright) if he's now retired?

[karlglazebrook]

I’ve been trying. I will try again Karl

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On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:20 am, mohawk2 ***@***.***> wrote: PGPLOT does appear to be copyrighted by Caltech. Therefore, @karlglazebrook <https://github.com/karlglazebrook> are you able to reach out to whomever at Caltech deals with their intellectual property to update the situation, hopefully opening the licence to something more permissive (3-clause BSD?) and/or officially distributing the latest, and/or updating the Tim Pearson site (https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/#copyright <https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/#copyright>) if he's now retired? — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGWYRLJXNZFVHHRFA2TUI3PPBANCNFSM5C7VPXZQ>. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS <https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675> or Android <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub>.

[zmughal]

Correct me if I'm looking at the wrong thing, but is this the tarball for
PGPLOT v5.3.1: https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/macos/pgplot531.tar.gz?

This is linked via https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/macos/.

[karlglazebrook]

Good find! The checksum for the tar file agrees with what I have on local disk Karl

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On 5 Jan 2022, at 5:02 pm, Zaki Mughal [sivoais] ***@***.***> wrote: Correct me if I'm looking at the wrong thing, but is this the tarball for PGPLOT v5.3.1: https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/macos/pgplot531.tar.gz <https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/macos/pgplot531.tar.gz>? This is linked via https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/macos/ <https://sites.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/macos/>. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGVX6IDGKDYIWVYSCU3UUPNGVANCNFSM5C7VPXZQ>. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS <https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675> or Android <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[karlglazebrook]

I've finally been able to make contact with Tim. He is willing to ask Caltech to change the license, and to put pgplot on GitHub.

He asks what might be the best open source license to use? Noting GPL also has problems in derived software.

[zmughal]

Though I do like GPL and use it for some of my code (along with the Perl_5 license), for PGPLOT I would recommend 3-clause BSD:

• https://www.astrobetter.com/blog/2014/03/10/the-whys-and-hows-of-licensing-scientific-code/,
• https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/License:BSD-3-Clause,
• https://opensource.org/licenses/BSD-3-Clause.

It would be compatible with the license of the autotool parts of this project which are under GPLv3 (would be good to clarify which parts are under which license).

Aside: Giza uses GPLv2 https://github.com/danieljprice/giza/blob/master/COPYING.

[mohawk2]

Great work Karl!

@zmughal I do agree that generally 3-clause BSD is a better approach, and https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses indicates Debian's DFSG are content with it. That should mean we can switch their packaging of the Perl library back to real PGPLOT, which hopefully is easy to execute. Now that I've dipped my toe in the water of being a Debian Perl person I might even be able to assist.

[mohawk2]

@karlglazebrook Do you think that if the project is put on GitHub, that Tim would be open to adding Diab, and maybe Zaki, you, and/or me as collaborators? What is his thinking about who can make new release versions?

Is he committed to it staying primarily in Fortran, or is he open to using f2c to switch to C? (I can easily imagine it would be important to stay in Fortran, but don't ask, don't get) If he is thus committed, which version? Does it have to stay F77?

[karlglazebrook]

I think he would be happy to have us as collaborators.

That said, I think he has no intention of ever doing any more work on it again. I would expect the best course is to get it on GitHub, and then any development should be on a forked copy. (PGPLOTng or something).

[karlglazebrook]

PS I will recommend the 3-clause BSD to Tim. I think the VDP article is very persuasive.

[mohawk2]

I think he would be happy to have us as collaborators.

That said, I think he has no intention of ever doing any more work on it again. I would expect the best course is to get it on GitHub, and then any development should be on a forked copy. (PGPLOTng or something).

This all makes sense. I think it will be useful for him to formulate an answer to this question:

• who is allowed to designate a new version of PGPLOT? Is it only him, or is he happy to pass that to a new release manager?

If there can be a new release manager, then we could make a PGPLOT 6.0.0 with some tweaks. If not, then as soon as PGPLOT is re-licensed we can make a PGPLOTng 6.0.0.

Either way, unless there is strong appetite to keep it in Fortran (and as I've just updated PDL's Slatec and Minuit Fortran code to work right under 64-bit, I have opinions on this), we should switch over using f2c. Frankly, the Slatec stuff was agonising due to F77 doing signature-guessing rather than C's header-file signature-specifying.

A much-less urgent question: where would we want to host this on GitHub? If we have to fork to PGPLOTng, we might as well host it in PDLPorters? Otherwise we can make a PGPLOT organisation.

[mohawk2]

Any updates on this? Was just reminded by some conversation on #debian-perl.

[djerius]

Either way, unless there is strong appetite to keep it in Fortran (and as I've just updated PDL's Slatec and Minuit Fortran code to work right under 64-bit, I have opinions on this), we should switch over using f2c. Frankly, the Slatec stuff was agonising due to F77 doing signature-guessing rather than C's header-file signature-specifying.

f2c kills performance. it generates loops that are highly inefficient because it doesn't know if increments are positive or negative at run-time, so writes code which checks for both at runtime.

[djerius]

Either way, unless there is strong appetite to keep it in Fortran (and as I've just updated PDL's Slatec and Minuit Fortran code to work right under 64-bit, I have opinions on this), we should switch over using f2c. Frankly, the Slatec stuff was agonising due to F77 doing signature-guessing rather than C's header-file signature-specifying.

f2c kills performance. it generates loops that are highly inefficient because it doesn't know if increments are positive or negative at run-time, so writes code which checks for both at runtime.

See also http://cfortran.sourceforge.net/

I've used this a lot in the past when starting from scratch interfacing with Fortran code. I didn't add this to PGPLOT because it had an existing approach.

[djerius]

I should note also that the HEASARC version of PGPLOT has rewritten some of the Fortran image file drivers in C; can't remember which ones. We should collaborate with them.

Also, there's a lot of work done (by Tim Jenness et al.) on this version of the code,and I don't know how easy it will be to rebase it on 5.3.1 (not saying it won't be easy, just that I'm ignorant of the effort). We might simply want to pull the deltas from 5.3.1 into this repo and use it moving forward.

(And, unfortunately, I'm currently really strapped for time, so can't but lurk at the moment).

[karlglazebrook]

I am curious to know what has happened with this. Has the repository been updated to pgplot 5.3.1 ?

[djerius]

I think we're still waiting on the licensing. Earlier you'd said

PS I will recommend the 3-clause BSD to Tim. I think the VDP article is very persuasive.

Did that conversation go anywhere?

[mohawk2]

@karlglazebrook Would you be open to doing a reply-all to the last email exchanged on this subject with Tim, but looping in me, @zmughal and @djerius?

[karlglazebrook]

I found some old emails I had lost like this! Will do Karl

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On 28 Jan 2023, at 4:20 am, mohawk2 ***@***.***> wrote: @karlglazebrook <https://github.com/karlglazebrook> Would you be open to doing a reply-all to the last email exchanged on this subject with Tim, but looping in me, @zmughal <https://github.com/zmughal> and @djerius <https://github.com/djerius>? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGUVUTTWL2PDLU6BRXTWUQU2LANCNFSM5C7VPXZQ>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[karlglazebrook]

PS please all send me your actual emails then The ones on the issue all resolve to ***@***.*** ***@***.***> Karl

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On 28 Jan 2023, at 4:20 am, mohawk2 ***@***.***> wrote: @karlglazebrook <https://github.com/karlglazebrook> Would you be open to doing a reply-all to the last email exchanged on this subject with Tim, but looping in me, @zmughal <https://github.com/zmughal> and @djerius <https://github.com/djerius>? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGUVUTTWL2PDLU6BRXTWUQU2LANCNFSM5C7VPXZQ>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[zmughal]

My CPAN e-mail works: zmughal @ cpan dot org . My other one is in the Git commits.

[djerius]

djerius @ cpan dot org

[karlglazebrook]

OK thanks. I have mohawk2's email somewhere so I will send.

[karlglazebrook]

No response from anyone. Any ideas?

[djerius]

Karl, I got your email to Tim; did Tim ever reply? If he did, he didn't reply-all.

[karlglazebrook]

No he did not. I am not sure what to do! Karl

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On 24 Oct 2023, at 3:07 am, djerius ***@***.***> wrote: Karl, I got your email to Tim; did Tim ever reply? If he did, he didn't reply-all. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGRWAKXSHTMKTGBJRI3YA2I3NAVCNFSM5C7VPXZ2U5DIOJSWCZC7NNSXTN2JONZXKZKDN5WW2ZLOOQ5TCNZXGU2TGMZWGIZQ>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[djerius]

One option is that, as long as the CalTech PGPLOT 5.3.1 link is live, this repo turns into a massive patch against that source. We can distribute the patch, and copy the source, patch it and then install it.

We could reach out to HEASARC, who maintain their own fork of PGPLOT for Xspec, and see how they are allowed to distribute it.

Or we can simply incorporate the updated code and move on.

[karlglazebrook]

Yes, I would not be confident how long that might stick around. But we definitely want to start from 5.3.1 HEASARC could be an option, do you have any contacts there? Karl

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On 25 Oct 2023, at 4:35 am, djerius ***@***.***> wrote: One option is that, as long as the CalTech PGPLOT 5.3.1 link is live, this repo turns into a massive patch against that source. We can distribute the patch, and copy the source, patch it and then install it. We could reach out to HEASARC, who maintain their own fork of PGPLOT for Xspec, and see how they are allowed to distribute it. Or we can simply incorporate the updated code and move on. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGQCNGBJ2NY4Y6TAQN3YA735VAVCNFSM5C7VPXZ2U5DIOJSWCZC7NNSXTN2JONZXKZKDN5WW2ZLOOQ5TCNZXG43TCMBZHA4A>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[djerius]

I've sent email to the help address for Xspec, the HEASARC package which incorporates PGPLOT.

[djerius]

I've sent email to the help address for Xspec, the HEASARC package which incorporates PGPLOT.

I've heard back from Keith Arnaud, and their licensing situation is kind of messy, so there's nothing we can gain from their experience.

Regardless of how we approach the end result, 5.3.1 should be integrated. I'll try and set aside sometime to do that in the near future; feel free to poke me if it seems like it's taking too long.

In the meantime, I think that the parallel work on the Perl PGPLOT module to use Alien::PGPLOT should begin/continue (or whatever state it's in). With the dropping of PGPLOT from Linux Distributions (and its replacement, at least in Debian, with the not-quite-feature-complete Giza), the current approach in the Perl PGPLOT module to find the PGPLOT library is essentially EOL.

[karlglazebrook]

Seems reasonable. I am surprised that it is even possible to get pgplot to work given how old it is! I was meaning to take another look at Giza, they resolved a whole bunch of my ‘different behaviour to real pgplot issues’ recently Karl

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On 28 Oct 2023, at 3:51 am, djerius ***@***.***> wrote: I've sent email to the help address for Xspec, the HEASARC package which incorporates PGPLOT. I've heard back from Keith Arnaud, and their licensing situation is kind of messy, so there's nothing we can gain from their experience. Regardless of how we approach the end result, 5.3.1 should be integrated. I'll try and set aside sometime to do that in the near future; feel free to poke me if it seems like it's taking too long. In the meantime, I think that the parallel work on the Perl PGPLOT module to use Alien::PGPLOT should begin/continue (or whatever state it's in). With the dropping of PGPLOT from Linux Distributions (and its replacement, at least in Debian, with the not-quite-feature-complete Giza), the current approach in the Perl PGPLOT module to find the PGPLOT library is essentially EOL. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGUSVYTYTJ5GZEAGPG3YBPRBJAVCNFSM5C7VPXZ2U5DIOJSWCZC7NNSXTN2JONZXKZKDN5WW2ZLOOQ5TCNZYGMZDEMJXHAYQ>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[mohawk2]

@karlglazebrook How close is Giza? I don't mind us switching fully over (including in the Perl binding) if it's properly good enough, but I'm not qualified to judge that.

[mohawk2]

@karlglazebrook By the way, if you looped me in on any email to anyone at Caltech, I never received it?

[karlglazebrook]

Hmm I may have used the wrong email address. I was trying to use non-github ones. Anyway the last two attempts were Aug and Oct 2023. Neither elicited a response.

[karlglazebrook]

Regarding Giza, that is something I need to test again. I saw they made a bunch of changes last year but haven't tested.

[mohawk2]

Please can you loop me in on the conversation? I'd like to reach out to Caltech myself to get this sorted out, and it will help if I have names and/or a bit more context :-)

Also, if you could try out Giza that will be helpful.

[karlglazebrook]

Sure I can, but there is no conversation as no one ever replied What email would you like me to use? Karl

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On 12 Apr 2024, at 1:55 am, mohawk2 ***@***.***> wrote: Please can you loop me in on the conversation? I'd like to reach out to Caltech myself to get this sorted out, and it will help if I have names and/or a bit more context :-) Also, if you could try out Giza that will be helpful. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGQJWQFKY36JDMRCZP3Y42W5ZAVCNFSM5C7VPXZ2U5DIOJSWCZC7NNSXTN2JONZXKZKDN5WW2ZLOOQ5TEMBVGAYDCNZRGEZQ>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[mohawk2]

ETJ at cpan.org please!

[karlglazebrook]

Done!

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On 14 Apr 2024, at 4:06 am, mohawk2 ***@***.***> wrote: ETJ at cpan.org please! — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADU7FGU6S7XPMJNBCBSIMDTY5FXY3AVCNFSM5C7VPXZ2U5DIOJSWCZC7NNSXTN2JONZXKZKDN5WW2ZLOOQ5TEMBVGM3TCOBUHAZQ>. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.