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Meeting09.06.2017
Charles LaPierre, Jason White, Sina Bahram, Jesse Greenberg, Richard Ladner, James Gable, Elisabeth Barker, Bruce Walker
Ron Howard
complex cases need good examples so we can get the a11y best practices https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMPpV5hfftmkUuGfrNc0wocQgeIl1MUf0WEfGSxGA1E/edit?usp=sharing
Types of Simple Drag and Drop operations
- Categorization
- Match
- Sorting / Ordering?
Jason: explaining our Google document where we are looking for examples for different types of D&D interactive.
Charles: explaining the current examples
Richard: platform they are using, mouse, arrow keys, finger on a touch screen form factor.
Charles: we just want to classify the examples right now and not worry about the input / output. that we can figure out later the different modalities.
Jason: if the user can't use touch input or could use that or perceive the visual output. but there may be other cases that all you would need to make it easier for them ie. larger targets for people with fine motor issues.
Jason: what about Cut/Paste in an editor?
Sina: I wouldn't label that as a drag and drop. editing is not just only an input or output problem.
Charles: think of web/epub
Jason: web types of use-cases which does exclude mobile / PC
Sina: lets agree that Web related technologies
Richard: there are millions of ipad/iphone apps so to eliminate those does not make sense to me.
Sina: I don't think we are eliminating them, but for the examples are we only going to look at web based, at least for a first round. A lot of solutions for web could be extracted to other platforms, they are usually a superset not a subset of web.
Jason: that sounds reasonable as a starting point, confining env. to work with for a11y interfaces, we can start there and then move onto richer env.
Charles: agrees with Sina/Jason and we can start on the web and map to the iPhone/iPad or other platforms.
Jason: are there any other simple cases.
Richard: one case block programming languages, where they drag/drop elements of programs, its ordered, but there are many different sets of ordered. if you look at code.org there are 200 hours of examples and there are only 1 accessible example.
Sina: ordering within a list. did you restrict that the types of things, list of rich objects not just text labels. The drag and drop portion is only a small subset (editing problem, navigation order or readout, way elements are voiced education level of student) a lot of other issues, and with editing and D&D is one subset of that interaction is re-ordering in this google doc as long as the items are Objects
Sina: tree-view as blocks can have metadata and collapse med/adv. consider a list of nodes can be sorted, where nodes can be parents (tree) that is being sorted.
Charles: I think its covered right?
Sina: use case could address the block level / file system / etc. comment maybe on one of the existing collapsible node.
Jason: I think thats right and we can elaborate . solutions don't inadvertently make assumptions of what is being sorted. Example website ATRC GPII work some people ordering of activities of some conference and other tasks along those same lines, and I will find that link and supply it. Its not perfect but good example.
Sorting problem, matching Charles:
Sina: solving 2 may be different than solving 3 maybe after we are done we can sort them based on the strategies.
Jason: seems to me that same solution that works for n items and when does n get too large.
Sina: do we have a constraint on use cases, when we consider something is problematic that a real world use case to motivate it. We need to link to an ETS example / PHET
Jason: if a strategy can scale then this is something that is worth noting that this strategy breaks down after n items.
Sina: one of the things that is frustrating / interesting in certain domains to help the user you can do things like keystroke to sort things then this wouldn't help if that is the task at hand. are those meta constraints. Note: when coming up with solutions that educational goal is important that we aren't doing the work for the student.
Jason: if the user is given the task to do a D&D operation.
Bruce: If the task is to move things, than the sort task is a cognitive task vs. the doing of it with physical D&D.
Sina: more complex enabling it displaying a list of target filtering on that destination could get that user an unfair example. Voice input context that could be viewed as not appropriate in certain cases.
Bruce: is moving a slider captured in this.
Phet simulations 2 or 3 vertical slider is to move those sliders independently how do you do that with a mouse/keyboard shortcuts and what is the visual/auditory.
Sina: slider is an incremental, its not freeform.
Bruce: push back if you have a slider / play bar on the movie, to minute 1 to 95
Sina: that is ways to solve that typing time, or page up/down doesn't that open up pickers / sliders.
Jason: two D aren't they even two columns.
Bruce: if you pick something up and drop it thats still a 2D.
Sina: in all the other movement x & y whereas this slider case is in 1 D
Order in one list the item is moving up/down in the list.
Sina: all other cases there is a discreet compare that is happening, that slider is a contineus interaction, and continuous data like time.
Bruce : list of ten items and dropping something into that and drop it into that list for the 11th at a particular place.
Sina: sliders could be included mobility and known strategies, chunking or accelerating by holding down, voice input for navigating time etc.
Bruce: it may turn out that the insights from slider could help with the more complex D&D operations.
Sina: inserting into a very large list.
Jason: it is different in the # of discreet positions
Sina: that slider is a large # of discreet positions and we are only talking about sampling rate. I think I agree sliders should be
Jason: this should be included in our strategies
Sina: Progress bar and multiple of them when doing interactive, or multiple thumb sliders
Jason: John Gunderson did some of this work with multiple thumb sliders
Bruce: simpler vertical thumb that moves up/down with 2/3 in a page, resistance in a wire the voltage and current, charging one slider may change the sliders in the other. Sliders could be considered knobs potentiometer, knob could have fixed start/end those are different widgets, mixing boards that have sliders and knobs.
Jason: this is interesting and could use sliders as
Jessie: salt shaker where how fast/hard you shake it how much salt came out.
Sina: In addition to the path mattering, time that action took, acceleration could make a difference as well.
Jason: that is fundamental, and this is what we wanted to do by classifying examples. we can expand the strategies path does matter and time potentially, and complex case you have a very large # of sources and destination, and dimension of complexity
Sina: one distinction is situation where # of items interface remains the same / changes during, / ending task and it moves or something disappears. that it is important side effects.
Jason: example sliders controlling something else, that could manifest outside of the slider itself.
Charles: what would you guys think for for timing of next meeting.
Bruce: I think we should have a few meetings quickly
Jason: is this format to discuss these in a call or go and do in email.
Sina: 1 month or more, could have a smaller group sooner
Jason: lets have a meeting to classify
Links references on line and come back and do the complex in a meeting.
Charles to send out minutes and meeting invite for D&D Sept 20 11AM
Jason to send out an email reminding everyone to fill out the google doc and send out the URLs I promised to those examples.