Vegetable Audit #71969
Vegetable Audit #71969
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What might work for the leafy greens is to make the current lettuce and cabbage items stay the same, and make a new lettuce/cabbage head which must be disassembled before eating, like a melon (probably shouldn't need a knife though). After that it would just be a matter of moving the seed data and some of the spawns over to the heads. Grocery stores often sell pre-chopped lettuce and cabbage, and people do store them that way at home, so it won't be too strange if not every spawn was a whole head. |
Yeah the plan was to do it like with a melon, but back when I was doing the melons I did it the way I started it now - replacing old items this way. You're right in that it'd probably be less of a hassle to make a new item rather than manually swapping IDs everywhere, though.
...they do? I mean, I don't know how it is in the US, but I have never seen pre-chopped lettuce/salad be sold around here. I've always seen them come in full heads... |
Yep!
There are also often open bins full of different kinds of pre-chopped lettuce, like a bulk kind of thing, and you can take as much as you like. This is all sold alongside whole heads.
You can get 'em in these plastic tubs, too. |
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Ah, okay, I've seen the ones in the little plastic boxes - I forgot those exist, frankly. I usually ignore their existence because they're out of the way in any store I've been to lmao. This kind of reminds me how bland our ingame stores are, but that's a separate problem I suppose. I'll try to handle that either tomorrow or... well, sometimes next week. |
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@fairyarmadillo May I ask where you got the values for pumpkins in #65924? I've been trying to find anything for those and I'm completely stumped. I have kcal and vitamin/g but I have no sources for average weights/volumes... |
I based them off of sugar pie pumpkins, which are the variety most commonly sold as eating pumpkins. Carving pumpkins are technically edible, but don't taste as good and have much less flesh and much more water by weight, so most of them work out to be roughly the same once prepared and cooked, except for the largest varieties (which I've never seen in a store). One problem is that the nutrition facts you find online are almost always for cooked pumpkin. https://nesfp.nutrition.tufts.edu/world-peas-food-hub/world-peas-csa/produce-recipes/sugar-pumpkin This site lists a whole raw sugar pumpkin as between 4 and 8 pounds, including the inedible bits. In my own experience, 8 is an overestimation. Other sources say 3-6. I settled on 5 pounds, which is on the largeish side that I've encountered when growing or buying these pumpkins myself. This site says you get about 4 cups of cooked pumpkin out of a 4-5 pound pumpkin. That seems a little high to me, but it's a nice even number for our purposes, and the calorie values are low enough that I don't really think it matters too much. This site lists 30kcal per cup of cooked pumpkin. If there are 4 of those in one pumpkin, the total works out to be 120kcal. This matches what we have in the game.
I frequently cook with these pumpkins IRL. The yield in seeds is actually pretty disappointing - this is what I got out of my last one. In the spirit of generosity I made the total seed amount roughly 1 cup, and I guess at the outside that's how much you might get once you pick all the pulp out. Eating an entire cup of pumpkin seeds is preposterous as they're fairly high calorie, so that's split into six little 60 kcal piles. Keep in mind that that's 1 cup with the shells on. They're like sunflower seeds, the actual seed is much smaller inside. |
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I actually suspect that the current kcal values for pumpkin seeds are for seeds with the shells already removed, but our current pumpkin seed volume is based on seeds with the shells still on. You probably only get like 1/4 to 1/2 cup of those from a whole pumpkin. Pumpkins were really useful to indigenous Americans and early settlers because they keep for long periods of time and can be added to bread or beer wort as filler, which helps stretch your valuable grain supplies. They taste good and have some vitamins and enough fiber to make you feel full, but nutritionally they are a very low value food. |
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HEY!!! @Karol1223 I was looking into setting up a fork and PR for the following. Could you please add it here instead?In-game, a 5 lb pumpkin contains 90 calories, for 4 slices of 22 calories each. Obviously this is far too low. For cites, the links indicate that "[a] 5 pound fresh pumpkin will make 4 to 4½ cups of cooked puree or mashed pulp", and "[t]here are 49 calories in a cup of cooked pumpkin." Zucchini in the game, weight for weight, provide nearly 10 times as many calories as pumpkin, whereas "[i]n comparison to zucchini, a similar fruit, pumpkin contains slightly more than double the calories per cup." The USDA link agrees with this and is probably the original source. Indeed, whoever programmed pumpkin nutrition in-game seems almost to have applied 100 g nutrition - 20 kcal - for 1 lb of pumpkin in-game. So I'm adjusting whole pumpkin calories from 90 to 200, and cut pumpkin from 22 to 49. As for vitamins, for some reason cut pumpkin in-game overwhelmingly loses its Calcium and Iron , but not Vitamin C, content, and this should be evened out for whole pumpkin in addition to changes in overall content. (The same applies for some other disassembly produce, such as watermelon, but one thing at a time.) With USDA figures the whole pumpkin would thus go from 83 mg Ca/3 mg Fe/62 mg VIT C Cut pumpkin should go from 10 mg Ca/564 µg Fe/15 mg VIT C representing a single-digit pp loss of vitamins (and calories) in cutting. Note that I am not representing any potential differences here between real world cooked/mashed pumpkin and the game item "cut pumpkin" for simplicity's sake, I believe in accordance with how nutrition is usually treated in the current model. I can also conserve nutrition 1:1 between whole pumpkin and sub-pumpkin if that is preferred. https://www.howmuchisin.com/produce_converters/pumpkin |
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If you're working on your own fork, that's nothing to do with me (unless you just want advice), but if you just mean a PR, maybe Karol will want to do it while they're here. I provided a site that says 1 cup is 30kcal, you pointed out one that says 49kcal. Libby's canned pumpkin is 45kcal per cup - maybe that should be our guidepost, as that's regulated by the USDA. And yeah realistically you'd get less than 4 cups of cooked pumpkin out of a 4 cup pumpkin, but there's a necessary level of abstraction going on, and not all fruit is the same size IRL. |
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I haven't done anything with Github, I was just looking into the process and preparing the files. It would make the most sense simply to fold the proposed changes right into this PR. To be exact, the USDA page - AFAIK USDA is the gold standard reference that C:DDA uses for food items - ascribes 49 calories to 245 g of mashed pumpkin, whereas cut pumpkin in-game is 525g. Maybe it includes some of the rind. As you say, I prefer to just abstract it and force an agreement with 5 lb pumpkin = 4 cut pumpkin = 4 cups mashed = 5 lb pumpkin. |
It's not. There is no "gold standard". People typically use the most trustworthy source they have, which in my case is listed in the PR description (most values there actually do correspond to the USDA - almost all are just copied into a nicer UI). I don't yet know what I'll do with pumpkins because pumpkins are weird. I'll work with them Friday at closest. For now I can't really help much more, sorry. |
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Hmm. EatThisMuch above puts 116 g of cubed pumpkin at 30 calories, whereas USDA has 49 calories to 245 g mashed pumpkin, which sounds like the ETM indicates an even higher caloric value than USDA does. Now, ETM's data does derive from the USDA entry on "raw pumpkin", as opposed to the transformed state of cooked/mashed, so if we leveled this against the C:DDA 525 g cut pumpkin, one cut pumpkin should be, what, 120+ calories? Not the whole pumpkin, but just one part. Note that the links we're looking at, such as HowMuchIsIn, indicate a ratio of 1 lb cut pumpkin for 4 cups cubed for 1 cup mashed. If we just ignore mashed, that brings us close to a 525 g "cut pumpkin" comprising four 116 g cups cubed. A full game pumpkin with 4 cut pumpkin, or 16 cups pumpkin, would thus be 480 calories. Pumpkins ain't peanuts!! Whatever the case, I think it's only right for us to sort it out here, otherwise we would end up with separate conflicting PRs; wouldn't that be a waste of time? -- Eager to Pump That Kin |
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You're jumping around a bit, and I think you're comparing apples to oranges in a few sources. Our pumpkin is a ~5lb sugar pumpkin, which looks about like this:
I frequently cook with these IRL. The yield I get when I remove the seeds, bake them, and scoop out and mash the flesh is about 2 cups. That's about what you see in this image, assuming that's an ordinary tablespoon. |
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Good point, but in my last comment there was new information to note. If we're comparing apples to apples - raw pumpkin to raw pumpkin, grams to grams - then we currently have a 2270 gram pumpkin that divides into 4 525 gram cuts, for a wastage of 170 grams (7.5%). Set aside mashed pumpkin for a moment. I somehow just realized mashed pumpkin is already a separate, craftable item. We'll deal with it last, as the stats follow from the rest. According to our various web sources, the skin/rind of the pumpkin is edible. Under apocalyptic conditions, waste not, want not? We did just add earthworms as a food resource... Perhaps that 170 g is just the stem. If we can treat the skin as edible, then our task is much simpler. All we have to do to begin with is adjust cut pumpkin nutrition to match calories, iron, calcium, and Vitamin C, proportionally to weight, according to this USDA data. Then the whole pumpkin nutrition follows, whether we decide we want 1:1 conservation in components or not. Can we do that? We would then have 26 kcal * 21 centigrams = 546 kcal for the whole. I don't see how that's unreasonable for an entire 5 lb pumpkin, minus stem. It's just that the current pumpkin in-game is outrageously under-nutritive. After that, if you insist, we can adjust the ingredients and output to the "mashed pumpkin" recipe so that a whole pumpkin would produce two portions of mash. (Actually, this recipe is currently broken, as it turns one 525 g cut pumpkin into 550 g of mashed pumpkin.) EDIT: I should admit that a pumpkin in-game also produces around 6 seeds (102 g). Perhaps we could go further and adjust the weight of the 4 cut pumpkin downward from 525 to 500 g, subtracting 25 each. Then each cut pumpkin would be 130 kcal, and a whole pumpkin minus seeds and stem would be a cool 2000 g. |
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Why do you keep adding kcal and pulling new sources every time you recalculate? Your numbers are wildly different every time. The weight of the cut pumpkin item currently is not accurate, I am the person who created it, it was just a random throwaway guess and nobody should be trying to calculate kcal based on it. The item should probably be significantly smaller than it is as the interior of a whole pumpkin is mostly hollow. A fair amount of a whole pumpkin's weight is the inedible pulp and seeds. The rind is unpleasant to try to eat and would drive down the enjoyability of the item while probably adding negligible calories. A tiny little pumpkin does not have 500 calories in it. It probably does not even have 300. It's mostly water and indigestible fiber. |
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The increase was from applying nutritional values of raw pumpkin per se, and at that to a higher proportion of the total mass. OK, bottom line, you're both veterans here and I'm not going to get one over you: how much should the game pumpkins weigh, and how much weight in usable substance should they produce on disassembly? Would you be able and willing to dice and weigh a model pumpkin offline? From that point on, this link provides everything necessary. Though infrequently, I've bought both whole sugar pumpkins before, and wrapped slices like this giant hunk (think a foot in diameter) - this would be a large baking sheet's worth. I struggle to believe something like the image would contain fewer than 100 calories. It's definitely more than 500 grams of flesh alone, at least... So what's our pumpkin supposed to be?
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...That is not a sugar pumpkin. I don't know what that is but it's got substantially more flesh than a sugar pumpkin. Sugar pumpkins are little and have a smooth orange exterior. Let's do some math and see how much flesh there actually is in a sugar pumpkin. A 5lb sugar pumpkin is, on average, 152mm across. source: (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Online-Orchards-2-Live-Pie-Pumpkin-Freshly-Harvested-Small-5-lbs-Size-Each-AUPK002/322607462) The volume of a 152mm sphere is, using 4/3πr^3, 1.84 liters. If we assume that the edible flesh of the pumpkin is 38mm thick, then the interior of the sphere is .77 liters, giving is 1.07 liters of flesh.
1.07 liters is a bit over 4 cups, but the flesh is not uniformly thick, and the stuff around the stem is woody and inedible. We'll call it 4 cups for convenience. 1 cups of cubed, cut up pumpkin is, per https://www.nutritionvalue.org/Pumpkin%2C_raw_nutritional_value.html 30 kcal. Times 4 is 120kcal, which is exactly what we have now. Or we could go with your usda.gov source and reduce it to 26kcal/cup for 104kcal total. Pumpkins do not have a lot of calories. They are mostly fiber and water, and you get surprisingly little edible food out of one considering their size. It looks like the existing whole pumpkin item's volume, which was a rough estimate made by me, who went off of calories and weight and just guessed about volume, is too high, and should be reduced to 1.84L. Cut pumpkin should be 250ml. Weight is correct. |
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The image is just for illustration, since I can't find what I have experience with. But I believe the wrapped slices I have reference to in stores might be Dickinson pumpkins. Pumpkin skin is not dense enough for it plus pulp plus stem plus seeds to constitute 80% of the pumpkin's weight, which is what you're attributing in your calculation. The skin on the pumpkin in the image above is very thin. What I'm contending is that the flesh in that 80 oz pumpkin, if we're simulating exactly the flesh, can't be at most a mere 17 oz. Hard figures of any kind remain difficult to identify online, but this paper contains a brief but useful mention:
It is much more believable that 75% of a pumpkin in weight would be the flesh than 20%. Empty space has near-zero weight after all. If I had a food-grade scale I would attempt to validate this myself. It would be much better to resolve this by recourse to weight than to volume. Either way, the vitamins still need fixing, as does the mashed recipe. |
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Industrial pumpkin farms producing fruit for canning don't use sugar pumpkins, they use much larger varieties like Dickinson which have a lower waste-to-flesh ratio - the stem only gets so big, the pumpkin is oblong and not round, less pulp, etc. They don't taste as nice as sugar pumpkins and you get fewer per vine with larger varieties, so sugar pumpkins are the ones most often sold fresh for food in the US. Our pumpkins are sugar pumpkins because those are the ones you find at grocery stores, and that's where you find pumpkins in CDDA. The seeds are also very commonly sold for planting as garden vegetables because most people don't have room in their flowerbed for ten-pound pumpkins. There are no industrial pumpkin farms in the game and you most often find seeds in garden supply centers or homes. You are right that the mashed pumpkin recipe and vitamins are all wrong. Mashed pumpkin is a super old item. |
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I am so confident that sugar pumpkins are not so radically divergent in mass composition that the only reason I'm not ordering a $10 scale on Amazon is that I would almost surely never use it again. Is there an alternative approach? A compromise on 50% flesh? Tangentially, you keep referring to a 120 calorie pumpkin - and this is indeed what HGtC and my local JSONs list - but in any world of mine, as mentioned, pumpkins are and have been 90 calories. Looking into it, it appears there's a general -25% calories modifier to many raw comestibles in my local games. Huh. |
It's up to Karol. I think we've both made our points here as well as can be expected, I'd prefer not to muck up their comments with any more bikeshedding than we already have done. Next time I buy one, I will film myself measuring and cutting it up. That won't happen for a bit as they're out of season, but I will do it.
Here's me hitting one with a kukri. You can see by my hand in the corner that they're just not very big.
Yes, foods with the RAW flag have their calorie values reduced unless they're cooked. The 120 kcal are there, potentially, but if you eat it raw you're only getting 90, as most uncooked food is not digested as well as cooked, even if it's technically edible. Heat breaks down cellulose, turns starches into sugars, and reduces the energy required to digest food. |
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I somehow didn't associate the pumpkins with that class, I was so focused on the topline. Videos like this already do a good job demonstrating the proportionality of the skin and other components. It's the weight that would really settle things. |
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We know the weight. She says in the video that she used two 3 pound sugar pumpkins and got five cups of puree. edit: hold on, mathing |
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@fairyarmadillo apologies but there's one thing I'm not following here. The website you linked says a cup of pumpkin flesh is ~116g (so our cut pumpkin weight isn't right) - but then... we're losing like 1.8kg of mass when cutting the pumpkin up? Is that normal and expected? The further comments confuse me even more, I am not sure which proportions I should be going with at this point...
I am pretty confident the proportions would vastly differ as the pumpkin diameter increases? |
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Cut pumpkin's mass was eyeballed and is probably wrong. The seeds, pulp, stem, and rind have been removed which is about 1/5 of the fruit by volume. Most of that stuff is heavier than the raw flesh, but I am sure I undershot the mass. |
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Check out that video in of the woman baking pumpkin and compare the slabs of pumpkin retrieved from the whole. Would you really call those a mere fifth or quarter of the whole by weight without concrete evidence?
The growth in volume should be predominantly accounted for by flesh, in which case growth in weight/diameter of the object should favor flesh, not penalize it. I strongly recommend just using "raw pumpkin" -> 50% flesh as the starting point for nutrition and recipes. It's a good compromise. |
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Summary
None
Purpose of change
I said I'd be back for the rest of comestibles.
Describe the solution
Other items audited to please the tests:
Describe alternatives you've considered
Testing
Additional context
https://www.eatthismuch.com/food/browse/?q=&type=food - for most of the food in question. Both for prices, caloric content, vitamins and sizes. There are, however, exceptions