Extra Applied Science Proficiencies #46206

slimeboy460 · 2020-12-21T05:38:35Z

Summary

Content "Update to Applied Science Proficiencies."

Purpose of change

There was a noticeable lack of Applied Science Proficiencies, reducing quality of gameplay.

Describe the solution

I added a bunch of proficiencies related to drugs, chemical making, mutagens. ETC. Doing this will allow for the foundations of future updates to the existing applied science items.

Testing

I pushed it through JSONLint, found a few errors which I will be ironing out.

actual-nh · 2020-12-21T05:54:48Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_chem_boiling",
+    "name": { "str": "Applied Boiling" },
+    "description": "You understand the many methods of boiling and that boiling with the purpose of speed isn't always good.",


I rather doubt this one as a separate proficiency.

I wasn't too sure on it either. I just added it for the check over.

Venera3 · 2020-12-21T10:29:12Z

I think that's a bit too granular, to be honest. There are no principal differences between synthetising uppers, downers, adhesives and what have you. I'd organize them along the lines of tool qualities, to show your practical understanding of the methods. Something like:

Basics of chem making/ Bench practice/ whatever for the recipes using distillation and maybe the basic chemistry set
Advanced chem making / etc for things using the advanced set and probably the analysis set
Relatively easier to learn profs each for Separation, Concentration that only build on the basic chem making (so you can learn them paralell to Advanced)
A prof for Biochemistry, for the more complicated normal organic stuff (venoms, adrenaline autoinjector for the moment I guess)
A complicated prof for Mutagens +- Serums, since that will have to be figured out from first principles

Explosives could use advanced chem making, to show you not messing up ( not that you can lose fingers yet, but y'know).

actual-nh · 2020-12-21T16:46:57Z

A prof for Biochemistry, for the more complicated normal organic stuff (venoms, adrenaline autoinjector for the moment I guess)

This would incorporate any extractions from (formerly) living sources - when I was TAing a 2-semester Experimental Biochemistry course (upper-level), we spent at least 10 weeks on that. Ideally, it would also reflect experience being around things like ether and chloroform. This ranges from knowing what one personally is susceptible to and realizing in time to get away from the fumes - personal experience - to remembering not to put chloroform into a sink with plastic pipes. (Chloroform is denser than water, so sinks to the bottom of the sink trap and sticks around a while... and it will dissolve plastic pipes!)

A complicated prof for Mutagens +- Serums, since that will have to be figured out from first principles

This should have a prerequisite proficiency of Biochemistry.

Explosives could use advanced chem making, to show you not messing up ( not that you can lose fingers yet, but y'know).

Eventually, avoiding messing up (on this or other more-dangerous ones) should be at least partially based on Perception.

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:28:36Z

I don't generally like the strategy of creating a bunch of proficiencies all at once and then trying to use them. A much better PR would be one adding a few connected proficiencies to the recipes you want to use them for. I tried doing it this way and found out quickly that my initial assumptions for what would make sense weren't as effective in practice.

I will take a look at your individual proficiencies in a moment but I'd strongly recommend picking something like mutagens, and going through them and adding appropriate proficiencies, rather than designing the proficiencies first and then trying to find where to fit them.

I-am-Erk

I'm really glad to see you working on this, but overall I think the concepts need a little work. Proficiencies should generally be about knowing the process needed to make something, not the end result.

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:39:27Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_mutagen",
+    "name": { "str": "Mutagen Production" },
+    "description": "Knowledge on the production of general mutagens.",


I don't think this is a good proficiency. Mutagens should use the same science as everything else, this just unnecessarily sets them apart from other recipes. If they use the same science proficiencies as other stuff, it will be easier and more rewarding to gain science proficiencies, and it will tie mutagens more to the real world.

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:39:36Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+  },
+  {
+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_serum",


I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:40:45Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+  },
+  {
+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_fuel",


This should be a recipe, not a proficiency. The proficiency should be the techniques used to make fuels, not the general concept of 'fuel' itself.

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:41:37Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+  },
+  {
+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_upper",


As above. You could have a sub-proficiency of chemical synthesis, "pharmaceutical synthesis", representing your ability to get pure enough compounds for human consumption. That would cover this and the ones below, and would be appropriate for mutagens as well.

Mutagens and serums do have a component that isn't synthesized - the extraction from various flesh/slime things. @I-am-Erk: What are your thoughts on making such extractions part of a biochemistry proficiency?

EDIT: Never mind, I see it below; thanks!

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:41:44Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+  },
+  {
+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_downer",


I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:41:51Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+  },
+  {
+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_adhesive",


Thank you for the advice, I wasn’t really sure in general what to do initially. So this was kind of an experimental to see how people thought. I’ll update this later in the day (after I’ve eaten and other stuff like that) with these critiques in mind.

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T17:50:21Z

On a first pass for science specifically I'd suggest splitting into the major fields. EG as a starting point:

Basics of chemistry
-- Organic chemistry
-- -- Biochemistry (also needs basic biology)
-- -- -- Pharmaceuticals
-- Inorganic chemistry
Basics of biology
-- Biochemistry (also needs organic chemistry)
-- -- -- Pharmaceuticals
-- Physiology
Large-scale synthesis (separate proficiency for stuff like fuel that you need in big batches, agnostic of the specific scientific field)
Xenology (study of alien stuff, useful for mutagens)
-- Xenochemistry (requires biochemistry as well)

actual-nh · 2020-12-21T18:19:50Z

-- Biochemistry (also needs organic chemistry)

Organic chemistry for biochemistry as separate from molecular biology & genetics (which don't really require more than basic chemistry)?

-- Physiology

As most frequently taught (grumble), would include Anatomy as well. (In reality, a basic chemistry proficiency would also be required, but I think that can be skipped over.)

Xenology (study of alien stuff, useful for mutagens)

Gotten via dissections of critters, or what? Actually, this should also include (with appropriate other prerequisites) study of altered Earth critters (e.g., insects) - new organs, most obviously.

-- Xenochemistry (requires biochemistry as well)

Better have a good analysis lab setup!

Perhaps add Xenophysiology (requiring physiology as well)? To me, this would include being able to deduce possible weaknesses. (Actually, Physiology/Anatomy would be helpful in at least starting on figuring out what you're seeing during a dissection, so may be required for Xenology.)

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-21T18:47:28Z

-- Biochemistry (also needs organic chemistry)

Organic chemistry for biochemistry as separate from molecular biology & genetics (which don't really require more than basic chemistry)?

I'd keep molbio separate, yeah, but presently I don't think we have anything that uses it.

-- Physiology

As most frequently taught (grumble), would include Anatomy as well. (In reality, a basic chemistry proficiency would also be required, but I think that can be skipped over.)

This is less about how it's taught and more about what it allows you to do, so Anatomy would be separate.

Xenology (study of alien stuff, useful for mutagens)

Gotten via dissections of critters, or what? Actually, this should also include (with appropriate other prerequisites) study of altered Earth critters (e.g., insects) - new organs, most obviously.

At some point yes, you could train this via dissecting aliens and things. For now though, it would mostly come up for mutagen crafting and making zombie pheromones.

-- Xenochemistry (requires biochemistry as well)

Better have a good analysis lab setup!

Perhaps add Xenophysiology (requiring physiology as well)? To me, this would include being able to deduce possible weaknesses. (Actually, Physiology/Anatomy would be helpful in at least starting on figuring out what you're seeing during a dissection, so may be required for Xenology.)

We'll eventually need a lot more science stuff than this, at some point I want a faction base lab expansion with full research missions, and then it will become really relevant. however we should avoid proficiency bloat until then. For the moment these would be mostly filler proficiencies for the current weirdly easy experimental products we can make in game already.

slimeboy460 · 2020-12-21T19:16:39Z

So what I am seeing for the edit is

Don't bloat the proficiencies. Try and keep them generalized.
Don't make the proficiency about the item, make it about the process.
Tackle the proficiencies using the scientific fields.

I also noticed that I forgot to put in "required proficiencies." for the chemical production, which I will update in the edit.
@I-am-Erk Does this look correct for everyone's critiques?

actual-nh · 2020-12-21T19:52:38Z

-- Physiology
As most frequently taught (grumble), would include Anatomy as well. (In reality, a basic chemistry proficiency would also be required, but I think that can be skipped over.)
This is less about how it's taught and more about what it allows you to do, so Anatomy would be separate.

I'm happy with that.

Xenology
Gotten via dissections of critters, or what? Actually, this should also include (with appropriate other prerequisites) study of altered Earth critters (e.g., insects) - new organs, most obviously.
At some point yes, you could train this via dissecting aliens and things. For now though, it would mostly come up for mutagen crafting and making zombie pheromones.

How would one be training it otherwise? Reading various manuscripts, I am guessing.

Perhaps add Xenophysiology (requiring physiology as well)? To me, this would include being able to deduce possible weaknesses. (Actually, Physiology/Anatomy would be helpful in at least starting on figuring out what you're seeing during a dissection, so may be required for Xenology.)

#46156 is regarding weaknesses (and, more specifically, lacks thereof), BTW.

We'll eventually need a lot more science stuff than this, at some point I want a faction base lab expansion with full research missions, and then it will become really relevant. however we should avoid proficiency bloat until then. For the moment these would be mostly filler proficiencies for the current weirdly easy experimental products we can make in game already.

Sounds good (and one use of the proficiencies is to make those at least slightly harder...).

Co-authored-by: I-am-Erk <[email protected]>

slimeboy460 · 2020-12-21T22:18:54Z

On a first pass for science specifically I'd suggest splitting into the major fields. EG as a starting point:

Basics of chemistry
-- Organic chemistry
-- -- Biochemistry (also needs basic biology)
-- -- -- Pharmaceuticals
-- Inorganic chemistry
Basics of biology
-- Biochemistry (also needs organic chemistry)
-- -- -- Pharmaceuticals
-- Physiology
Large-scale synthesis (separate proficiency for stuff like fuel that you need in big batches, agnostic of the specific scientific field)
Xenology (study of alien stuff, useful for mutagens)
-- Xenochemistry (requires biochemistry as well)

I'll add this into the code, thanks for writing this out.

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

Co-authored-by: actual-nh <[email protected]>

actual-nh

Definite progress!

actual-nh · 2020-12-22T00:52:57Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+    "type": "proficiency",
+    "id": "prof_organic_chemistry",
+    "name": { "str": "Organic Chemistry" },
+    "description": "Knowledge on the branch of chemistry which studies and uses substances with carbon-containing compounds.",


Suggested change

"description": "Knowledge on the branch of chemistry which studies and uses substances with carbon-containing compounds.",

"description": "Knowledge of the branch of chemistry that studies and uses carbon-containing compounds.",

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

actual-nh · 2020-12-22T01:02:16Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+    "can_learn": true,
+    "default_time_multiplier": 2,
+    "default_fail_multiplier": 2.5,
+    "required_proficiencies": [ "prof_intro_chemistry", "prof_intro_biology" ]


Suggested change

"required_proficiencies": [ "prof_intro_chemistry", "prof_intro_biology" ]

"required_proficiencies": [ "prof_chem_synth", "prof_intro_biology" ],

Not actually outdated.

slimeboy460 · 2020-12-22T01:19:06Z

I just noticed that I was clicking resolve not merge, shoot.
Just learnt how to unresolve, thank you github for having that,

Co-authored-by: actual-nh <[email protected]>

actual-nh · 2020-12-22T03:53:52Z

data/json/proficiencies/chemistry.json

+    "description": "Knowledge of the branch of chemistry that studies and uses compounds not containing carbon.",
+    "can_learn": true,
+    "default_time_multiplier": 1.5,
+    "default_fail_multiplier": 2.5, 


There's an extra space at the end of this line.

Raikiri · 2020-12-22T08:29:07Z

I think it makes sense to have proficiencies as actual physical skills required for chemical synthesis. I'm not a chemist, so I'm not really an expert on subject, but I did watch all NileRed videos, lol. I think the most basic (and realistic) proficiencies used by lots of synthesis processes include:

Recrystallization
Precipitation
Concentration/Evaporation
Filtration
Separation
Distillation
Vacuum distillation
Dehydration
Reduction

And one could somewhat deduce which actual proficiencies are likely to be used by each specific recipe. For example, if a recipe produces a solid product out of liquids, it's probably done by concentration/evaporation or by precipitation. If you're extracting a pure element from a compound (say, extracting aluminium from aluminium oxide) it's reduction. If you're purifying a solid substance, it's probably recrystallization. Lots of recipes with liquid byproducts use separation, etc.

I think even in case of highly sci-fi recipes like mutagens, most proficiencies involved should be real, because it's likely to use the same exact processes as existing chemistry, but with unknown reagents.

actual-nh · 2020-12-22T16:24:57Z

I think it makes sense to have proficiencies as actual physical skills required for chemical synthesis. I'm not a chemist, so I'm not really an expert on subject, but I did watch all NileRed videos, lol. I think the most basic (and realistic) proficiencies used by lots of synthesis processes include:

These are a bit too finely-grained for proficiencies, at least for how the current system is set up. OTOH, many of these either are, or could be, tool "qualities"/functions.

And one could somewhat deduce which actual proficiencies are likely to be used by each specific recipe. For example, if a recipe produces a solid product out of liquids, it's probably done by concentration/evaporation or by precipitation. If you're extracting a pure element from a compound (say, extracting aluminium from aluminium oxide) it's reduction. If you're purifying a solid substance, it's probably recrystallization. Lots of recipes with liquid byproducts use separation, etc.

Frequently, some deductions can be made. However, there are variations - purifying a solid substance could be dissolution (removing insoluble contaminants) followed by separation (removing contaminants with different behavior, again) then concentration/evaporation/precipitation.

I think even in case of highly sci-fi recipes like mutagens, most proficiencies involved should be real, because it's likely to use the same exact processes as existing chemistry, but with unknown reagents.

Agreed.

slimeboy460 · 2020-12-23T00:30:56Z

I think it makes sense to have proficiencies as actual physical skills required for chemical synthesis. I'm not a chemist, so I'm not really an expert on subject, but I did watch all NileRed videos, lol. I think the most basic (and realistic) proficiencies used by lots of synthesis processes include:

Recrystallization

Precipitation

Concentration/Evaporation

Filtration

Separation

Distillation

Vacuum distillation

Dehydration

Reduction

And one could somewhat deduce which actual proficiencies are likely to be used by each specific recipe. For example, if a recipe produces a solid product out of liquids, it's probably done by concentration/evaporation or by precipitation. If you're extracting a pure element from a compound (say, extracting aluminium from aluminium oxide) it's reduction. If you're purifying a solid substance, it's probably recrystallization. Lots of recipes with liquid byproducts use separation, etc.

I think even in case of highly sci-fi recipes like mutagens, most proficiencies involved should be real, because it's likely to use the same exact processes as existing chemistry, but with unknown reagents.

It might be worth it to look into adding these, after I’m done with something personal I’m working on I’ll return to this. Shouldn’t take more than tomorrow to finish.

I-am-Erk · 2020-12-23T18:09:35Z

Those are, for the moment, way too precise. You don't really learn "precipitation" without learning "recrystallization". You can't do "recrystallization" without engaging "filtration". All those things are covered in basic chemistry, with organic chemistry representing an improved understanding of how to use the same techniques with a more specific subset of chemicals and tools, biochemistry represents adapting them to a different subset, inorganic chemistry covers other uses.

Making it that precise would be like breaking construction into "measuring", "hammering", "sawing", "chopping", "screwdriving", etc. It loses the forest for the trees.

actual-nh · 2020-12-23T18:12:52Z

Making it that precise would be like breaking construction into "measuring", "hammering", "sawing", "chopping", "screwdriving", etc. It loses the forest for the trees.

Agreed. OTOH, "measuring" would be a reasonable tool quality. It's... the difference between individual actions (trees) and the organization/selection/understanding of those actions (forest).

slimeboy460 · 2020-12-25T20:07:13Z

Those are, for the moment, way too precise. You don't really learn "precipitation" without learning "recrystallization". You can't do "recrystallization" without engaging "filtration". All those things are covered in basic chemistry, with organic chemistry representing an improved understanding of how to use the same techniques with a more specific subset of chemicals and tools, biochemistry represents adapting them to a different subset, inorganic chemistry covers other uses.

Making it that precise would be like breaking construction into "measuring", "hammering", "sawing", "chopping", "screwdriving", etc. It loses the forest for the trees.

How do you think it looks so far? The equivalent of all of these specifics could be chemical synthetization or just dependent on the fields in place

Cyprex · 2021-01-15T17:11:43Z

What Erk said above, go from recipes to proficiencies not the other way around. Proficiencies that are only used in a few recipes are rather unsatisfying, and imo needless churn for the player.

I-am-Erk · 2021-07-06T06:37:16Z

This is ready to merge, but it needs the new fail multiplier scalars. Since I cannot edit, I will merge as-is and make that part of a PR implementing some of these.

slimeboy460 added 2 commits December 21, 2020 00:27

Extra Chemical Proficiencies

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No batch time savings on select recipes #46262

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Test/CI builds (intermittently) failing on field, possibly weary tests (unrelated to pull requests) #46256

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Extra Applied Science Proficiencies #46206

Extra Applied Science Proficiencies #46206

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	"description": "Knowledge on the branch of chemistry which studies and uses substances with carbon-containing compounds.",
	"description": "Knowledge of the branch of chemistry that studies and uses carbon-containing compounds.",

	"required_proficiencies": [ "prof_intro_chemistry", "prof_intro_biology" ]
	"required_proficiencies": [ "prof_chem_synth", "prof_intro_biology" ],

Extra Applied Science Proficiencies #46206

Extra Applied Science Proficiencies #46206

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Summary

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