Change to Brawling passive buff

[CodeBandit]

Summary

SUMMARY: Balance "Brawling: Leg block replaced with additional block"

Purpose of change

Leg blocks aren't inherently learned through instinct/street fighting and need to be specifically trained to be useful in combat (Muay Thai, Taekwondo, and Wing Chun). Being able to block with your legs regardless of the targetted body part shouldn't be a part of brawling.

The removal of leg blocks leaves brawling lacking, so it is replaced with a +1 to block instead.

Describe the solution

JSON a new passive buff requiring melee 7 to brawling.

Describe alternatives you've considered

Damage increase based on highest/lowest stat -but this looked to require an architecture change to martial arts.
Explored OnPause and OnGetHit for damage reduction via dodge and block using various stat combinations.
Damage and armor penetration buffs based on different skills.

Testing

Debug enemies and debug through block attempts

Additional context

Changed passive from involving all skills to just a bonus block.

[Termineitor244]

+1 Dodging Skill at 10 Intelligence (10% of a trait) is pretty strong for a Martial Art, and even more for a static buff...
For contrast, Zui Quan has a bonus to dodging by 15% of Intelligence (Passive Buff), Capoeira has a +1 as passive buff, and most other styles also have a +1 (But not as passive buffs).

The Block damage reduction and Accuracy bonus are fine as they are, but together...

I think Brawling would get a pretty good position in areas that the other martial arts (More focused in blocking and/or Accuracy) should be way better.

I propose a different approach, why not a +1 block attempt? But without the block damage reduction and gated (As the previous leg block) at Unarmed 7, a very experimented brawler against zombies should be able to block 2 zombies at the same time.

It could be that, or leaving Combat Adaptability but only with the block damage reduction.

[CodeBandit]

+1 Dodging Skill at 10 Intelligence (10% of a trait) is pretty strong for a Martial Art, and even more for a static buff...

Below is an exhaustive list of all martial arts which give a positive bonus to dodge:
Capoeira: static +1, w/ +1 to dodge, plus on move +1 stacks 3 times.
Leopard: static +1.
Wing chun: Static +15% of perception.
Zui quan: Static +15% of intelligence.
Crane: On move +1 stacks twice, plus +1 on dodge w/ +1 to dodge.
Ninjutsu: On-move +1.
Boxing: On move +1 stacks twice.
Niten: On pause, +50% of perception.
Tai chi: On pause, +1.

In contrast, +1 dodging requiring 10 int is a steep price. At that point, just spec dex since it's .5 dodge per point instead of .1. Note that all of the martial arts listed above have either massive damage or dodge reliant techniques, both of which brawling lacks. To clarify, brawling has no damage enhancing buffs and techniques.

I think Brawling would get a pretty good position in areas that the other martial arts (More focused in blocking and/or Accuracy) should be way better.

The point is that Brawling shouldn't be better than any martial art at their specialty. It's just a combat style adapted from general combat and derives from typical street fighting.

I propose a different approach, why not a +1 block attempt? But without the block damage reduction and gated (As the previous leg block) at Unarmed 7, a very experimented brawler against zombies should be able to block 2 zombies at the same time.

Enhancing block attempts is even stronger than +1 dodge since blocking isn't even gated by probability. That, and brawling inherently has block counters.

[Termineitor244]

In contrast, +1 dodging requiring 10 int is a steep price. At that point, just spec dex since it's .5 dodge per point instead of .1. Note that all of the martial arts listed above have either massive damage or dodge reliant techniques, both of which brawling lacks. To clarify, brawling has no damage enhancing buffs and techniques.

Allow me to differ, I still consider than a +1 dodging skill passive buff (Plus the other 2 bonuses) at 10 int is too good for Brawling, since many of those styles only have a similar bonus after pausing or moving, the other styles having bonus damage or dodge counters are fine because those are the strong advantages of those styles.

The point is that Brawling shouldn't be better than any martial art at their specialty. It's just a combat style adapted from general combat and derives from typical street fighting.

And I think the same as you, Brawling shouldn't be better that any martial art at their specialty, I was talking about how, giving these bonuses to Brawling, would put the Martial Art in close terms to others with specialty in those areas, which is no good.

Enhancing block attempts is even stronger than +1 dodge since blocking isn't even gated by probability. That, and brawling inherently has block counters.

Is it not? I thought blocking an attack is gated by probability (You have a chance to block the attack, +1 block attempts works the same way than +1 dodge attempts as far as I remember, you have only one chance to: First, dodge an approaching attack, if that fails, you attempt to block the attack, if that also fails, then you are hit, the +1 block attempt would only allow the possibility of, if you already blocked (or tried to block and failed) an attack in this turn, to attempt to block another one)...

All that said, I forgot about the block counters of Brawling, so forget about the idea of +1 block attempts, that would be too much.

I still insist that these 3 bonus as a passive buff are too much for brawling (At least put them at 6/7 melee), so I would prefer if the dodge bonus is gone, but I think is only a matter of different opinions.

[CodeBandit]

I would 100% agree with you if the PR didn't also include the removal of leg blocks from brawling as the primary driving force for the passive buff. I don't think this would keep brawling anywhere remotely close to an actual martial art's power since it inherently has zero damage bonuses -you'll still hit like a wet noodle.

With that said, I'll budge and move up the skill requirement to 6 melee. I was only hesitant on it since melee trains twice as slowly as unarmed/weapon skills hence getting there is already a feat anyways.

Edit:
To answer your question on blocks, it is not gated by probability (as shown below). When you are hit, block_hit() will be called without question and there is also nothing in block_hit() that probabilistically determines if it goes through or not.

[Termineitor244]

Well, one of the main characteristics of Brawling is being able to do what the others can but at later times than the most dedicated ones, I concur in the fact that Melee is difficult to train (Or easier if you turn off the other skills training, since you can train Melee while unarmed, or armed), I have myself being hard pressed to even get a 5 skill in Melee for that sweet Assassinate technique of Ninjutsu...

With that said, I'll budge and move up the skill requirement to 6 melee. I was only hesitant on it since melee trains twice as slowly as unarmed/weapon skills hence getting there is already a feat anyways.

Thanks! Maybe a better alternative could be to have the bonus divided in two? So the player can get some of the effects in an earlier skill level, without it being too much for that level of skill.

To answer your question on blocks, it is not gated by probability (as shown below). When you are hit, block_hit() will be called without question and there is also nothing in block_hit() that probabilistically determines if it goes through or not.

Ohhhh... I was terribly confused, when the Wiki was updated after the Martial Arts update, one of the things added by Hymore was the fact that blocking attempts worked with a chance to block (Or at least, that´s what one can understand from his/her words), so I thought that was the case, I will update the Wiki with this info, thanks for clarifying my mistake.

[eJ0opb]

I object to the intelligence-based buff, not on the basis of balance, but on the basis that I haven't seen any evidence that intelligence in real life is useful for avoiding anything except work and taxes.

[CodeBandit]

I object to the intelligence-based buff, not on the basis of balance, but on the basis that I haven't seen any evidence that intelligence in real life is useful for avoiding anything except work and taxes.

*note: dodge from int, in this case, is anticipatory due to combat experience. Stats are deliberately separated this way to prevent double-dipping.

With your argument, Zui Quan shouldn't scale off of int either.

[eJ0opb]

I object to the intelligence-based buff, not on the basis of balance, but on the basis that I haven't seen any evidence that intelligence in real life is useful for avoiding anything except work and taxes.

*note: dodge from int, in this case, is anticipatory due to combat experience. Stats are deliberately separated this way to prevent double-dipping.

With your argument, Zui Quan shouldn't scale off of int either.

Indeed, I believe it shouldn't. Combat ability scales with physical characteristics, training, and experience, but unfortunately, not directly on intelligence.

[CodeBandit]

Removing intelligence from any and all aspects of the martial arts system since combat ability scales with physical characteristics would be far beyond the scope of this PR -if it even is a valid point from a game balance perspective.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

Leg blocks aren't inherently learned through instinct/street fighting and need to be specifically trained to be useful in combat

What's the logic behind this? Something is coming at your lower body, you move your leg to intercept it. It doesn't really require any training to do.

[CodeBandit]

Leg blocks aren't inherently learned through instinct/street fighting and need to be specifically trained to be useful in combat

What's the logic behind this? Something is coming at your lower body, you move your leg to intercept it. It doesn't really require any training to do.

You are able to leg block regardless of which body part is target (arms, head, torso), and that requires some serious training.

[eJ0opb]

Removing intelligence from any and all aspects of the martial arts system since combat ability scales with physical characteristics would be far beyond the scope of this PR -if it even is a valid point from a game balance perspective.

I agree; it's definitely not within the scope of this PR to fix all of martial arts. And this is just my input - you are free to ignore it. Martial arts (and melee in general) is abstracted to a fairly high degree, and I do not know how much desire there is to actually make it "realistic".

[eJ0opb]

Leg blocks aren't inherently learned through instinct/street fighting and need to be specifically trained to be useful in combat

What's the logic behind this? Something is coming at your lower body, you move your leg to intercept it. It doesn't really require any training to do.

You are able to leg block regardless of which body part is target (arms, head, torso), and that requires some serious training.

I would argue that it instinctive to use your legs to protect your groin; as for the other parts, it may not be entirely unintuitive to defend against attacks originating from a low height using your legs.
But, again, melee is very abstract; in its current state, it seems attack and defense are mostly independent of each other.

[CodeBandit]

If the target is below the groin, the target is already your legs so I would argue wearing leg protection (leg guards) would already cover that scenario fairly well. The technique would just enhance that protection to anywhere else in your body

[eJ0opb]

Yes, but what about child- and dog-sized attackers attacking above the belt? I can imagine an experienced fighter with no formal training figuring out that it is better to put your leg in the way than to try to catch with the arms, potentially exposing the throat and other higher vital points.

[CodeBandit]

That would then be a completely different PR whereby attacks "from below" would be more likely to strike your legs. I agree with you completely, and it makes sense, but definitely not within scope of this PR.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

You are able to leg block regardless of which body part is target (arms, head, torso), and that requires some serious training.

That's a good point.

[Dacendeth]

Not sure why these need stat scaling, a small static bonus seems more fitting for a generic martial art.

[Hymore246]

Yeah, leg blocking doesn't have much of a point with arm blocking around. The game doesn't care what is targeted either. In fact, you will never know what is targeted because the game hasn't decided at that point what the enemy is aiming at. Its ambiguous in the messaging anyway.

I assume you have already read the design goals for rebalancing Brawling in #32773 so I'm not going to repeat them here since others already have but if you are REALLY determined to remove leg block for something else, make it a +1 block attempt static buff given at melee 7. Most styles get their block attempts early if not by default. Having a +1 block attempt at melee 7 is very much end game and suits the style in my opinion.

[CodeBandit]

Updated to just be 1 block attempt. After reviewing leaving this alone for a while, +1 to block is relevant enough for end game, and the previous implementation described in this PR was dodgy.