Remove bin=yes from excrement bag vending machine

[michaelzangl]

Currently, there are two presets.

The dog waste basket sets:

• amenity=waste_basket
• waste=dog_excrement

The dog excrement bag vending sets:

• amenity=vending_machine
• vending=excrement_bags

They both conflict in the amenity tag. So far a OSM design issue...

Often, they are combined. Currently, this is mapped by adding a bin=yes to the vending_machine. This is not perfect but as good as it currently is. In Germany, those bags are often found on dog waste baskets. But most of the time, the dog waste basket is more dominant. So when new users enter it, they add a dog waste basket. Then, you have no way of adding the excrement_bags vending.

There should be a possibility to add the excrement bags after the dog waste basket was selected or some notice on how to fix this (select excrement bag vending first).

[JamesKingdom]

Thanks for the reminder, it's just that here in the UK having bags supplied on a bin is very uncommon, and I completely forgot about this when adding it.
I still think that we should leave the seperate vending machine for dog bags preset, as there might be a time where it is not in a location with a bin, but add a checkbox that allows you to specify if it vends bags, @bhousel , what do you think?

[michaelzangl]

Yes, I would keep them as separate items. We have many vending machines hanging on street signs/other things without a bin.

The problem I see is with the tagging inconsistency. There should be a consistent way to tag it if there are both.

Personally, adding a vending=excrement_bags would be enough for me, that is what I query for ;-). It would at least allow to find them somehow and fix things when/if there is a common standard. The Swiss community seems to be using this. Adding the vending tag to a waste_basket is used 477 times, vs 1230 bin=yes.

Adding a simple bin=yes to a amenity=vending_machine is not perfect either. Many times, that bin is only meant for dog waste, so the amenity=vending_machine preset should add waste=dog_excrement as well (dropdown?). And you won't find it when searching for amenity=waste_basket

German forum suggests to tag them as two nodes. But they are often combined in one housing.

Btw: The wiki is inconsistent on payment (fee=no and payment:none=yes) as well.

[JamesKingdom]

The original "excrement bad vending machine", has other fields such as fee, operator and payment type, so I suspect that we should carry these over to the bin. That said, the bin doesn't have an operator field, and maybe it should.

[bhousel]

Can we just urge users to map the bag dispenser and the waste bin as 2 separate nodes?
I really don't want to invent something that conflicts with what the wiki says (unless there is a really good reason, like people adding really wrong data).

for reference: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:vending%3Dexcrement_bags

I know that we could add a "dispenses bags" field to the wastebin, and an "accepts waste" field to the bag vender, but let's not do that.

[magol]

I think this discusion should be move to the taggig mailing list. The schema is should be changed to solve this issue.

[michaelzangl]

The problem I see is not with the tagging, but with the user interface (in fact, I don't care much about tagging and going the tagging list/proposal way takes years).

I am currently trying to convince a local dog community to help mapping. This is a easy task for starters and everyone finds a station that is not mapped. The problem is that the UI is confusing at the moment.

So I'd suggest:

1. Add a vending=excrement_bags to the dog waste bin (makes sense, since the dog waste bin is the more dominant thing most of the times) or
2. Simply drop the bin=yes for the vending.

[bhousel]

I agree we can drop the bin=yes from the "vending machine" to encourage people to map 2 nodes.

[simonpoole]

Sorry but using a bin=yes/no tag is established tagging for objects that have a waste paper bin attached and is used the small number of 58'174 times.

And @michaelzangl the vending=excrement_bags combination with amenity=waste_basket is essentially not in use combined with the conventional tagging (with other words your local group wont actually be able to find them, which is probably the point of adding them .....).

IMHO part of consistent and easy to understand tagging is to use the existing patterns over multiple objects and not to invent new per-object attributes needlessly (what we are doing here). Using bin=yes to indicate a combined facility with a bin is well established, and it doesn't make sense to invent something else for not really clear reasons.

[bhousel]

@simonpoole see
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=vending&value=excrement_bags
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=vending&value=excrement_bags#combinations

There are 13 332 waste bag vending machines of which 1 407 have a bin=* tag, so this tagging is not as well established as putting bin on e.g. a bus stop.

Conversely
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/waste#values
There are 1 772 waste=dog_excrement tags.

Both the wiki, and actual usage of the tags, and common sense, suggest that people should map the bag vending machine and the waste bin as two separate objects, so that's what we're going to support.