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Mediator #83
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I close it for now as it is not used atm. Can be re-opened once it becomes active. |
Re-opening this issue, as it's the one we need to use, since it's in the code. |
Cycle 9: I have mediated 65 cases and I have 9 cases pending in this cycle. I will make a breakdown of the cases in the coming days. Cycle 8: I am a mediator and have a bond of 10 000 BSQ locked up. In 16% of the cases the transactions was not published, but this problem has essentially disappeared with version 1.2.4 The non-responding traders will likely not sign the mediators suggestion and are thus expensive for the DAO. If (when) the volatility goes up there will be many more forward trades and non-responsive buyers. |
I just looked up quickly the rough number of trades in that period and it was about 3000 trades. So if the other mediator has similar numbers we have about 210 disputes at 3000 trades which is 7%. This seems to be a bit above the average what I remember from the past (5%) but as we had several issues over the past weeks and as with the new trade protocol some cases are caused from usability/confusion this seems to be in the expected range. We have to work hard to bring those number down so user experience gets improved and costs for the DAO decreased. |
I have done 165 mediations so far. this overview was made 20 days ago:
Since I made this overview 20 days ago, invalid transactions have significantly been reduced on my end, and I would say the biggest issue is when the BTC seller can't see the confirm payment received Button. most recent overview would be: failed tx (not published) 5% |
It should be clear to any observer that the BSQ price and market has been very weak this month so far. Of course it's difficult to balance the supply and demand, and only 6 months ago I could barely find any BSQ to buy for my personal trading. But issuance has soared since then relative to the amount being burned in fees at least. So it does makes sense to me to look closely at the operating costs that we are seeing in compensation requests. Maybe there are places to cut costs. Not that I can say I understand the work required to mediate a case, except from the point of view of a customer in a mediation, but it struck me that 50 BSQ per case was quite a high rate to charge. Now we are seeing the monthly bills hitting in comp. requests and I can give some minor analysis. Hypothetical User X (prefers to remain anonymous) made 225 trades and had 9 cases that went to mediation (or legacy arbitration), none due to negligence, though 1 or 2 to software errors the prevented the trade from completing. A mediation rate of 4% and a cost to BISQ of 450 BSQ. So in an average case, the cost of mediation alone is already a huge chunk of fee revenue. And because it's a variable cost, it will scale more or less with exchange volume growth. So I think it's quite important to carefully consider the cost of that role. |
Mediations are less and less every cycle, with our feedback programers are dealing with the different bugs that are appearing. I believe our role to be critical but also fading. The end goal is to have no mediation. @ifarnung rnung I believe your analysis not to be precise to the fact that you are simply putting out a single case from a trader and using it as the norm. The vast majority of users never have any issues, and the ones that do are every month less and also helped by us the mediators through keybase, please keep in mind that this rate also considers this kind of support and is not asked for anywhere else. |
@ifarnung To help to get there we need more detailed reports and better communication from mediators/refund agent to developers. |
Cycle 11 an overview of the reasons why the tickets were opened in the first place would be: -Failed tx: 20% Notice the issue regarding the Sellers not being able to confirm still stands (although significantly reduced) but that is because there have been some cases where users that have opened the dispute had to wait 24hrs for the refresh button to appear so decided to open an early dispute and solve the problem faster. that waiting time will be cut down on future updates. Invalid txs have been considerable this cycle although the number has not increased dramatically as you might think from comparing from last evaluations, I believe on the previous assessment I was only referring to the later part of the cycle and hence wasn't an accurate representation. |
313 cases this cycle is a HUGE amount of cases and exactly the worry I was highlighting a few months ago about the very high costs of Mediation based on this roles compensation of 50 BSQ per case. I'm sure that you are providing excellent resolution of all these errors and failed trades, but can the DAO afford to pay 15,000+ BSQ this cycle for your support efforts? It just doesn't seem proportional at all to the amount of work done. In my country, 50 BSQ is almost a day's wage for white collar work, so we must admit this isn't a year's worth of work in one cycle... I understand that the first mediator set the bar at 50 per case, and you were just following, and I am sure some discussions have been had on how to budget this expense with the new Team Lead system. Anyway, often silence on BISQ means consent once it comes time to vote so I will voice my objection early so that at least people can think over how it should be handled going forward. |
This is a misunderstanding; 313 is the total number of cases @leo816 has mediated since he has been a mediator. From his report for cycle 11 at bisq-network/compensation#495 (comment):
(@leo816, it would be better to do everything in terms of cycles, not months, but that's a nit)
Also as mentioned in @leo816's cycle report, he is requesting 4100 BSQ based on the 50 BSQ per case figure, because this was the agreed upon figure when we decided to split up his compensation request in cycle 10 over two cycles. Going forward, he will request compensation at the rate of 25 BSQ per case:
And actually, I want to make a correction to that understanding Leo and I established. As discussed in @ifarnung's own proposal to become a mediator at bisq-network/proposals#184, we should not be denominating the value of work performed in BSQ. It should always be denominated in USD and then converted to BSQ at the published 90-day moving average for the current cycle. So, leo, if we do that rough calculation, you've been receiving 50 BSQ / case during a period where the 90-day average has been around 0.66 USD/BSQ. That equals 33 USD per case. Adjusting this down by half 50/2 = 25 BSQ per case, we get 33 USD/2 = 12.5 USD per case. @ifarnung is requesting 1000 USD/cycle in his proposal to become a mediator, and that would be the equivalent of 80 cases, which is higher than the current average number of cases per mediator (with 2 active mediators). From a budget perspective, I am fine with the agreed-upon 12.5 USD / case, and I would also be fine with a fixed amount per month as @ifarnung is suggesting. Assuming that @ifarnung's proposal gets approved and we go with 1,000 per month there, I'd let you choose, @leo816, whether you'd like to agree to the same. There is a lot of value in having competent mediators at the ready regardless of how many cases are coming in, and I believe that paying a steady rate for that is probably a better approach than paying per-case. In any case, these changes were made in part because of your feedback, @ifarnung, so thank you for that. Note that the other mediator, @bisquser, is revoking their key, and so there won't be any contention about the 50 BSQ / case figure there. So we're basically dealing with a fresh start now. |
I've updated the description of this issue to link to the new https://bisq.wiki/Mediator role documentation that @leo816 has been putting together in bisq-network/admin#26. |
Sorry for my several misunderstandings, yes the 313 number being many months of work makes much more sense. Just to be clear, I am not asking to become a mediator, I'm far from skilled or capable from the providing that service. So once again, my thanks to @leo816 and @bisquser for the excellent and skilled work they performed in that regard. My critique was only the overall budget expenditure for a scaling and ongoing cost. Agreeing to a 50% cut in pay is certainly a show of good will, helpful participation in the austerity measures, and is very much appreciated by the community I am certain. So thanks to all for working that out. And at the lower rate per case, and with a lower estimate of cases handled per cycle, I think it does make more sense to compensate as you guys have agreed. Thanks for the update, another confidence boosting message to stakeholders. :) |
should be 16.5 no? |
Hah, that was a terrible calculation on my part, thanks for catching it.
… On Mar 12, 2020, at 7:12 PM, leo816 ***@***.***> wrote:
we get 33 USD/2 = 12.5 USD per case.
should be 16.5 no?
which means that 60 cases would be around that 1000$ mark, sounds about right. I have no problem with changing to a steady rate but my question now would be, how do I value all the 149/313 mediation cases (+ all the cases in between now and the next cycle) that I haven't gotten compensation for yet? Im guessing that it would fall under the 25 BSQ/16.5 USD agreement we made. I think is best if I continue with the 16.5 USD until I catch up at least, but im open to discussion.
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Cycle 10-11: I have mediated 206 cases and I have 12 cases pending in the two last cycles. |
Cycle 60There was an issue therefore I have stopped mid-third cycle as a mediator for bisq 2 and completed my second as mediator for bisq 1: Bisq 2
Bisq 1 Overview of mediation since I started which was about around the middle of the cycle Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress): Currently I have 23 mediation tickets open and still handling some trades from the old instance. In terms of manual payouts this cycle I've have to do 8 Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report: Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where mediation has been closed. Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 160 Breakdown of Bugs: Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: 1 This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 172 |
Cycle 60 ReportThe average number of mediation tickets for this cycle was 2.6 new mediation cases per day. This cycle was pretty busy due to the bitcoinj issue affecting trades, users not able to get 4 bitcoin connections when using provided nodes, and problems with message delivery due, I imagine, to some time with a large amount of users being offline. Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress):Currently I have 8 mediation tickets open. Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report:Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where the tickets have been closed: OTHER: 14 Total: 102 Breakdown of Bugs for closed mediation tickets since last report:The number of bugs this cycle were 9: Buyer unable to confirm payment started: 0 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: ~9 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have had to be manually sent to donation address: 2 Off Bisq payouts assisted with ~3 Summary of reasons for all closed mediation tickets:This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: OTHER: 228 Total: 1,148 |
Cycle 60I have seen an increase in mediaiton tickets in Bisq 2 this cycle. Last cycle there were 7 mediation tickets, this cycle there were 24 mediation tickets. All mediation tickets were resolved. The majority of tickets are abandoned trades, and a feww of them have been bitcoin sellers being late to send the bitcoin after payment. No issues with buyers or sellers having to deal with scammers. The UI is still causing some problems, I am sometime have to take users away from Bisq 2 to Matrix to deal with their issue. For example there is not an option to upload documents or screenshots within the mediation chat to provide evidence of payment. |
Cycle 61 ReportThe average number of mediation tickets for this cycle was 3.4 new mediation cases per day. Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress):Currently I have 17 mediation tickets open. Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report:Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where the tickets have been closed: OTHER: 14 Total: 64 Breakdown of Bugs for closed mediation tickets since last report:The number of bugs this cycle were 7: Buyer unable to confirm payment started: 0 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: ~6 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have had to be manually sent to donation address: 2 Off Bisq payouts assisted with ~2 Summary of reasons for all closed mediation tickets:This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: OTHER: 242 Total: 1,212 |
Cycle 61Bisq 2
Bugs or improvements:
Bisq 1 Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress): Currently I have 26 mediation tickets open and still handling some trades from the old instance. In terms of manual payouts this cycle I've have to do 4 Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 94 Breakdown of Bugs: Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: 4 This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 266 |
Cycle 61I have been active daily on Bisq 2. This cycle 15 new mediation tickets were opened. I have 0 mediation cases in progress. There were no issues with any scammers. There were some issues with a few of trades where the seller was not able to receive messages. I think this is a case of the seller closing the trade if buyer has not made payment only for the buyer to make payment late and then open mediation when they do not receive the bitcoin from the seller. I will create an issue to address this. I recommend Bisq Easy sellers should always open mediation if the buyer does not send payment. This means that if the buyer reappears at a later date it will be easier to address the issue. This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance:
TOTAL: 69 |
Cycle 62 ReportThe average number of mediation tickets for this cycle was 2.8 new mediation cases per day. Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress):Currently I have 14 mediation tickets open. Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report:Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where the tickets have been closed: OTHER: 7 Total: 71 Breakdown of Bugs for closed mediation tickets since last report:The number of bugs this cycle were 4: Buyer unable to confirm payment started: 1 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: ~4 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have had to be manually sent to donation address: 0 Off Bisq payouts assisted with ~0 Summary of reasons for all closed mediation tickets:This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: OTHER: 249 Total: 1,283 |
Cycle 62Bisq 2
Copying Solomon's report, here is a summary of the last cycles:
Bugs or improvements:
Some additional improvements have been made to further increase the alignment of incentives between parties by raising the reputational limits to become a trusted seller and the overall limit of offers that can be taken at once. Bisq 1 Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress): Currently I have 21 mediation tickets open and still handling some trades from the old instance. In terms of manual payouts this cycle I've have to do 2 Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 65 Breakdown of Bugs: Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: 2 This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 331 |
Cycle 62I have been active daily on Bisq 2. This cycle 18 new mediation tickets were opened. I have 0 mediation cases in progress. There were 5 users scammed by one scammer with a low reputation ranking achieved by burning 100 BSQ. Ways to improve Bisq Easy security model are being discussed here. This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance:
TOTAL: 87 |
Cycle 63 ReportThe average number of mediation tickets for this cycle was 3.4 new mediation cases per day. Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress):Currently I have 8 mediation tickets open. Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report:Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where the tickets have been closed: OTHER: 25 Total: 101 Breakdown of Bugs for closed mediation tickets since last report:The number of bugs this cycle were 4: Buyer unable to confirm payment started: 4 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: ~7 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have had to be manually sent to donation address: 0 Off Bisq payouts assisted with ~0 Summary of reasons for all closed mediation tickets:This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: OTHER: 274 Total: 1,384 |
Cycle 63I have been active daily on Bisq 2. This cycle 17 new mediation tickets were opened. I have 0 mediation cases in progress. This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance:
TOTAL: 104 |
Cycle 63Bisq 2
here is a summary of the last cycles:
Bugs or improvements:
Bisq 1 Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress): Currently I have 15 mediation tickets open and still handling some trades from the old instance. In terms of manual payouts this cycle I've have to do 5 Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 141 Breakdown of Bugs: Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: 5 This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 472 |
Cycle 64 ReportThe average number of mediation tickets for this cycle was 3.6 new mediation cases per day. Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress):Currently I have 16 mediation tickets open. Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report:Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where the tickets have been closed: OTHER: 12 Total: 93 Breakdown of Bugs for closed mediation tickets since last report:The number of bugs this cycle were 8: Buyer unable to confirm payment started: 1 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: ~4 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have had to be manually sent to donation address: 2 Off Bisq payouts assisted with ~0 Summary of reasons for all closed mediation tickets:This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: OTHER: 286 Total: 1,477 |
Cycle 63Bisq 2
here is a summary of the last cycles:
Bugs or improvements:
Bisq 1 Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress): Currently I have 20 mediation tickets open and still handling some trades from the old instance. In terms of manual payouts this cycle I've have to do 6 Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 74 Breakdown of Bugs: Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: 6 This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 544 |
Cycle 64I have been active daily on Bisq 2. This cycle 17 new mediation tickets were opened. I have 1 mediation cases in progress. This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance:
TOTAL: 121 |
Cycle 65 ReportThe average number of mediation tickets for this cycle was 5.5 new mediation cases per day. Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress):Currently I have 21 mediation tickets open. Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report:Since the last report here are all the reasons mediation was opened where the tickets have been closed: OTHER: 22 Total: 151 Breakdown of Bugs for closed mediation tickets since last report:The number of bugs this cycle were 23: Buyer unable to confirm payment started: 4 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: ~7 Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have had to be manually sent to donation address: 3 Off Bisq payouts assisted with ~0 Summary of reasons for all closed mediation tickets:This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: OTHER: 308 Total: 1,628 |
Cycle 65Bisq 2
here is a summary of the last cycles:
Bugs or improvements: Bisq 1 Number of mediation tickets currently open (in progress): Currently I have 29 mediation tickets open and still handling some trades from the old instance. In terms of manual payouts this cycle I've have to do 4 Summary of reasons for closed mediation tickets since last report: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 154 Breakdown of Bugs: Number of mediation tickets, since last report, that have required manual payouts: 4 This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance: Summary of reasons for disputes: TOTAL: 698 |
Cycle 65I have been active daily on Bisq 2. This cycle 27 new mediation tickets were opened. I have 1 mediation cases in progress. This is an all time list of tickets that have been closed for my current Bisq mediation instance:
TOTAL: 148 |
Docs: https://bisq.wiki/Mediator
Team: @bisq-network/mediators
Proposal for @leo816's bonded mediator role:
GitHub Issue
Approved DAO Proposal Transaction
Proposal for @Bisq-knight's bonded mediator role:
GitHub Issue
Approved DAO Proposal Transaction
Proposal for @pazza83's bonded mediator role:
GitHub Issue
Approved DAO Proposal Transaction
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