diff --git a/discord/channel.py b/discord/channel.py
index dc4f88e45d..b1fac739cb 100644
--- a/discord/channel.py
+++ b/discord/channel.py
@@ -2094,7 +2094,7 @@ def channels(self) -> List[GuildChannelType]:
         """
 
         def comparator(channel):
-            return not isinstance(channel, _TextChannel), channel.position
+            return not isinstance(channel, _TextChannel), (channel.position or -1)
 
         ret = [c for c in self.guild.channels if c.category_id == self.id]
         ret.sort(key=comparator)
@@ -2104,14 +2104,14 @@ def comparator(channel):
     def text_channels(self) -> List[TextChannel]:
         """List[:class:`TextChannel`]: Returns the text channels that are under this category."""
         ret = [c for c in self.guild.channels if c.category_id == self.id and isinstance(c, TextChannel)]
-        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return ret
 
     @property
     def voice_channels(self) -> List[VoiceChannel]:
         """List[:class:`VoiceChannel`]: Returns the voice channels that are under this category."""
         ret = [c for c in self.guild.channels if c.category_id == self.id and isinstance(c, VoiceChannel)]
-        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return ret
 
     @property
@@ -2121,7 +2121,7 @@ def stage_channels(self) -> List[StageChannel]:
         .. versionadded:: 1.7
         """
         ret = [c for c in self.guild.channels if c.category_id == self.id and isinstance(c, StageChannel)]
-        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return ret
 
     @property
@@ -2131,7 +2131,7 @@ def forum_channels(self) -> List[ForumChannel]:
         .. versionadded:: 2.0
         """
         ret = [c for c in self.guild.channels if c.category_id == self.id and isinstance(c, ForumChannel)]
-        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        ret.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return ret
 
     async def create_text_channel(self, name: str, **options: Any) -> TextChannel:
diff --git a/discord/guild.py b/discord/guild.py
index 9177553174..301bb1db5f 100644
--- a/discord/guild.py
+++ b/discord/guild.py
@@ -620,7 +620,7 @@ def voice_channels(self) -> List[VoiceChannel]:
         This is sorted by the position and are in UI order from top to bottom.
         """
         r = [ch for ch in self._channels.values() if isinstance(ch, VoiceChannel)]
-        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return r
 
     @property
@@ -632,7 +632,7 @@ def stage_channels(self) -> List[StageChannel]:
         This is sorted by the position and are in UI order from top to bottom.
         """
         r = [ch for ch in self._channels.values() if isinstance(ch, StageChannel)]
-        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return r
 
     @property
@@ -644,7 +644,7 @@ def forum_channels(self) -> List[ForumChannel]:
         This is sorted by the position and are in UI order from top to bottom.
         """
         r = [ch for ch in self._channels.values() if isinstance(ch, ForumChannel)]
-        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return r
 
     @property
@@ -668,7 +668,7 @@ def text_channels(self) -> List[TextChannel]:
         This is sorted by the position and are in UI order from top to bottom.
         """
         r = [ch for ch in self._channels.values() if isinstance(ch, TextChannel)]
-        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return r
 
     @property
@@ -678,7 +678,7 @@ def categories(self) -> List[CategoryChannel]:
         This is sorted by the position and are in UI order from top to bottom.
         """
         r = [ch for ch in self._channels.values() if isinstance(ch, CategoryChannel)]
-        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position, c.id))
+        r.sort(key=lambda c: (c.position or -1, c.id))
         return r
 
     def by_category(self) -> List[ByCategoryItem]:
@@ -707,13 +707,13 @@ def by_category(self) -> List[ByCategoryItem]:
 
         def key(t: ByCategoryItem) -> Tuple[Tuple[int, int], List[GuildChannel]]:
             k, v = t
-            return (k.position, k.id) if k else (-1, -1), v
+            return (k.position or -1, k.id) if k else (-1, -1), v
 
         _get = self._channels.get
         as_list: List[ByCategoryItem] = [(_get(k), v) for k, v in grouped.items()]  # type: ignore
         as_list.sort(key=key)
         for _, channels in as_list:
-            channels.sort(key=lambda c: (c._sorting_bucket, c.position, c.id))
+            channels.sort(key=lambda c: (c._sorting_bucket, c.position or -1, c.id))
         return as_list
 
     def _resolve_channel(self, id: Optional[int], /) -> Optional[Union[GuildChannel, Thread]]: